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Author Topic: Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me  (Read 1056 times)

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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me
« on: May 13, 2019, 10:59:42 PM »
Tom,

I'm sure I should know this, but uh, I don't.

My dough, which is at least medium high hydration and a few days fermentation...and maybe, to the point, hand-mixed...can become a nightmare glued to the peel before launch if iI move a little too slowly, use a  little too much sauce ( which really isn't much at all) .. and i'm using plenty of semolina on the peel



Had a very good slice in the city today at Upside Pizza...I watched or a while. The dough was very soft, I was told it was a 72 hour sourdough, hydration I' not sure of but crumb and crust were good, crisp and light..The dough when opened had zero bubbles, went on the peel smoothly without wrinkling at all ( I usually get wrinkling) . A lot! of pretty thick sauce was used down first, a good amount of cheese....the dusting flour seemed a mix with semolina but not certain..and the pace was leisurely..the pie sat there for a while. When launched, went in as smooth as can be...completely round...and these aren't super skilled pizza makers..I've watched them train guys totally green and they're making pizzas I can only dream of.


Saw similar leisurely pizza dressing and process at Rosie's..and I know he's using a least 70 percent hydration with HG flour...and also not skimping on any ingredients.   Both of these are thin crust pies...not crazy thin but just right for the style.


What am I missing?? How can they do this...and I dance on the edge of failure..sometimes dancing right off the ed.....


 :-[
« Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 11:13:22 PM by Jersey Pie Boy »

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2019, 01:18:26 AM »
Wrinkling is generally caused by the dough contracting, snapping back. A major cause of this is insufficient dough fermentation. This might be an area you would want to investigate further in your testing.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline PizzAmateur

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Re: Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2019, 01:27:42 AM »
Do you launch from a wood or metal peel?

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2019, 06:27:23 AM »
Thanks Tom..I think I'm often on the verge of over, rather than under...could that also cause the wrinkling? I'm still working on getting as thin as possible without over-opening and having top shrink back to peel, so that might be a cause also?


As far as the extended peel times the pros are using vs me having to scoot along....and I've also read that keeping peel times short is key...is machine-mixed dough stronger and is that a factor?

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2019, 06:27:42 AM »
PA,


Wood

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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2019, 11:01:21 AM »
You say "as thin as possible", there is such a thing as getting the skin too thin. Remember, thin does not equate to crispy. Thin equates to a finished crust that is crispy only for the first minute or two after removing the pizza from the oven, it then quickly picks up moisture from the air as well as the toppings and becomes quite soft, sometimes even tough and chewy.
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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2019, 11:18:35 AM »
I think that may be my issue...will keep an eye on that; I've already been working on that and things are better...less peel issues for sure..but still work in progress.....


So, could you quantify something.? ..If I want a thin crust in the NY elite style ,what should be approximate thickness of the dough  on the peel..what I guess I've seen called a TF of .07 (right?)  I like a fairly puffy rim and I know that's a different element, and for me, not the problem area..it's the center part that defines crispy, soggy, or disastrous-tomato-cheese mess-sticking to peel ,


Thanks!

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2019, 09:25:23 PM »
I'm NOT Tom... but I make my fair share of pizzas...  :chef:

The BIGGEST factor IMO is making sure to make the top of the dough the BOTTOM of the pizza. That is the single greatest factor that will cause your pizza to stick to your paddle(wood btw). I have to tell my employees this over and over until they get it right (sometimes they are looking at it after stretching and can't remember). Why is this?? Simple... the bottom of the dough is significantly more sticky that the top.

FWIW, we only use white flour... no semolina.

OH... I should mention... make sure to grab the edges of the pizza before launch and give a tug in all directions... this will loosen the pizza from the paddle... I also ALWAYS "pre-shake" my pizza before launch as well... the LAST thing you want to do it open the oven and start shaking and the dough stay put and the toppings land inside on that hot stone. Maybe I should take a video sometime of me stretching, topping and launching a dough? If I get bored, I may do that! :D

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2019, 11:27:08 PM »
Most of my "go to" pizzas are N.Y. style and I use 10-ounces of dough for a 12-inch pizza which gives a dough loading of 0.08849 (ounces per square inch).
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Offline Brent-r

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Re: Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2019, 08:25:30 AM »
Along the lines of the peel vs dough challenge here are a few thoughts
- most people here think wooden peels are best for launching
- stretch out the skin more or less completely on another surface and put on the dusted
   peel only when you are ready to dress and launch.  Longer time on the peel means more sticking
- most peels I have seen have an edge with a bevel from each side.   Trim the edge back so there is
   no bevel on the side you want to side the skin up on .. less of a hump makes it easier
     I'll attach a photo in a few minutes.
- get some super fine sand paper or even steel wool and clean up the surface to  make is as smooth
    a surface as possible.

The first photo shows the very sharp edge to slide up on to.  Raise the handle end until there is no gap between the prep surface and the top of the peel.
The second photo is shows the bottom and the long taper on the bottom to achieve the flat top and sharp edge
« Last Edit: May 15, 2019, 08:34:53 AM by Brent-r »
Brent

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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2019, 11:27:44 PM »
Thanks guys..I'm reading and noting. GJ, with that reversal ( I didn't know this!) what do you do about rim shaping...shape more on reverse?

Offline Yael

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Re: Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2019, 03:13:54 AM »
Bill,
There can be other factors that can lead to sticky peel. I re-experienced it recently.
One of my current client's pizza table is stainless steel, no stone material (granite/marble..). It seems to be more sensitive to heat than stone, so if there can be a heat difference between the table and the dough, when adding cold sauce (from the fridge) it results in some condensation under the dough skin. I don't know exactly what and when it happens, but something about these temperatures can contribute to sticking!
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2019, 06:44:19 AM »
Thanks for those numbers, Tom...On paper, mine would be similar but I'd like if someone had a cross section photo showing what those thicknesses translate to visually since the rim size seems like it could make a big difference.


I might be a bit NY style,  but my pizzas aren't quite :)

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2019, 10:18:17 PM »
Thanks guys..I'm reading and noting. GJ, with that reversal ( I didn't know this!) what do you do about rim shaping...shape more on reverse?

Do NOT be afraid of flour.... take the dough off the dough tray and set it upside down on the pile of flour.... shape as usual. I always start about an inch all the way around the outside edge to start forming a rim. Then, using the entire end of your fingers and not your finger tips, forcing the air from the center towards the outside edge.... after I've got the dough about 50-60% the size it's supposed to be, I pick it up and start stretching that way... rotating the dough as I go... it is seriously hard to explain though.  :-\ Maybe I can find a video on youtube that would be similar to how I do it.

Offline foreplease

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Re: Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2019, 11:01:07 PM »
I might be a bit NY style,  but my pizzas aren't quite :)
I think of it as JPB style. It’s cool and delicious looking and very recognizable.
-Tony
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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2019, 09:25:26 AM »
Thanks Tony!  :)


So Tom, here's a slice from a pie last night...didn't stick to the peel at all...I let the dough sit out a little longer than I usually do..on counter, not peel or loaded...and I think that may have helped.  It was 7 days in the fridge, All Trumps, 70HR, 3% oil, baked Blackstone for 5.5 minutes and I liked it a lot.


So,,,this is about the thickness I often/usually go for in the crust.  .is there a way to quantify this as far as TF.. It was definitely very thin on the peel, but I decided to take a shot with it because I like it  :) . About 295 gm dough and around 12 inches or a little more before baking


Thanks!

Offline ARenko

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Re: Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me
« Reply #16 on: May 17, 2019, 12:30:51 PM »
JPB, you let the dough ball sit out longer or an opened skin?

I've having the same trouble with launching. Planning to try some of the tips in this thread next time.

So far blowing under the pie before launching is what I have to do. Last time I blew a bit to much and a third of my pizza floated off the side of the peel, dumping some toppings on the floor. Somehow I managed to get it back on and salvage it.

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me
« Reply #17 on: May 17, 2019, 01:56:34 PM »
That couldn't have been fun :)


Yes, the partly opened dough, not the ball..  maybe 10 minutes or so.

Offline Qapla

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Re: Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me
« Reply #18 on: May 17, 2019, 06:47:57 PM »
So far blowing under the pie before launching is what I have to do.

I have seen many people lift the edge they plan to launch first of the dressed pie and toss/push a little flour under the skin (instead of blowing) and it helps to get it started when sliding it off the peel into the oven. They also give the pie a little shake to make sure if is free on the peel before taking it to the oven.


I usually cook on pans so I do not have this situation ... one day I will get a stone and a peel and try that method.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2019, 06:49:44 PM by Qapla »

Offline fckace

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Re: Dough vs peel...Pros vs well, me
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2019, 05:25:13 AM »
My technique is to use parchment paper cut at the size of the pizza (so that it doesn't burn), like this you can prepare all your pizza before (don't forget to oil the crust with olive oil so that it doesn't dry) and put it in the oven easily with the parchment paper.
Of course, it's a newbie technique but it work fine when you don't have all the skills or the material (like a correct peel) :-D

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