Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza

[Pete-zza]

Pat,

"Blowing" is what can happen to a dough if it overproofs (rises too quickly) while in the refrigerator or cooler. Usually, it is a temperature-related problem, sometimes accompanied by using too much yeast. It's less of a problem in a home setting where you are only trying to cool down a few dough balls but it can be a big problem when you are trying to cool down several boxes of dough balls. That's a big reason why Tom Lehmann advocates that operators try to keep their finished dough temperatures at around 80 degrees F and get the dough balls into the cooler as quickly as possible, before they have a chance to get "gassy".

Peter

[Pete-zza]

As regular readers of this thread may be aware, I have been experimenting with a new dough making method using my standard C-hook KitchenAid mixer. Because of my intimate familiarity with the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation, I have used that formulation as a guinea pig for the new method. The new dough making method, which is described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251, was used recently to make doughs that had useful lives of up to 7 days. More recently, I extended that to a bit over 10 days (10 days and 4 1/2 hours, to be more exact). For those who are interested in these sorts of things, the details of my latest experiment, including the Lehmann dough formulation I used for test purposes, are presented at Reply 23 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg35370.html#msg35370. A typical photo of the finished pizza is shown below.

Peter

[Troy T]

I have been a long time lurker here.  I am finely going to stop lurking and make some pizza.
This is a Great board with almost an endless amount of information and outstanding support by it members.  I hopefully will be able to add my two cents in someday. 

I will be trying my first attempt at making pizza dough on Sunday.  I will be using Tom’s recipe for a 12” pie and I have a few questions;

Lehmann recipe for one 12-inch pizza
Flour (100%), KASL high-gluten, 7.15 oz. (1 1/2 c. plus 2 T.)
Water (63%), 4.50 oz. (between 1/2 c. and 5/8 c.)
Salt (1.75%), 0.13 oz. (a bit over 5/8 t.)
Oil (1%), 0.07 oz. (a bit less than 1/2 t.)
IDY (0.25%), 0.02 oz. (1/6 t., or about 7 pinches between the thumb and forefinger)
Total dough ball weight = 11.87 oz.
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

The only flour I could come up with so far was KA All Purpose. 
I will be cooking this directly on a stone, and can use ether a KA Mixer or a Food Processor.
Do I need to change anything in the formula for this type of flour?  I am think maybe less water due to the lower gluten?  What about the fermentation time 24 or 48 or more hrs?  Anything you can add will be greatly appreciated.

Troy
 

[Pete-zza]

Troy,

I think I would be inclined to reduce the hydration (the amount of water in relation to the flour) to 60%. Also, if it is cold where you live, I think I would increase the amount of instant dry yeast (IDY) a bit, to around 0.40%. I ran these changes through the Lehmann dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html and got the following results:

Flour (100%):          206.35 g  |  7.28 oz | 0.45 lbs
Water (60%):          123.81 g  |  4.37 oz | 0.27 lbs
Oil (1%):                  2.06 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):           3.61 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.65 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
IDY (0.40%):            0.83 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Sugar (0%):             0 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0 tsp | 0 tbsp
Total (163.15%):     336.66 g | 11.88 oz | 0.74 lbs | TF = 0.105

In terms of instructions when using a KitchenAid stand mixer, you may find the following post of interest:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563 (Reply 8). There are also many other tips and pointers at the same thread that you might find useful. If you decide that you would rather use a food processor, then this thread may prove of use to you:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2189.msg19289.html#msg19289.

I think 24-48 hours of cold fermentation should work out well for you.

At some point, you may want to investigate the possibility of getting some bread flour. King Arthur makes a very good brand that is found in many supermarkets and food stores. It also works well for a Lehmann style dough and will usually tolerate high hydration levels.

Good luck.

Peter

[chiguy]

 Hi Troy T,
 Pete-zza is correct about trying to get you're hands on at least some KA Bread flour or high gluten. This is important from a standpoint of texture/chew in the crust consistent with a N.Y. street pizza. Also the fact that the N.Y.  Lehmann formulas call for the use of a stronger flour. Even if you do not have access to High gluten a Pillsbury bread flour would be better to use for a higher protien content than the KA all purpose. I think you can find Pillsbury Bread flour almost anywhere.    Chiguy

[Pete-zza]

In keeping with my recent experiments with the basic Lehmann dough formulation using the new KitchenAid dough making method described in http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html, I recently made a 16” pizza using that method. The details of that effort, including the particular Lehmann dough formulation I used, are set forth at this post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg36081.html#msg36081 (Reply 29).

The significance of the most recent effort is that the dough was cold fermented for over 12 days before using, with very good results. A typical photo of the finished pizza is shown below.

Peter

[Troy T]

Thanks guys for quick responses and the info.  I will try to get some bread flour for the next pizza, that way I will know the difference. I will post my results with the AP flour.

Troy

[giotto]

On several occassions, I've left my dough in the refrigerator for at least a week. This was normally an accident though. With an exception to some loss of color, the pizza came out fine. But I don't believe the taste matched the degree of taste that I receive here in the San Francisco area with starters that I've produced or with sour dough breads that I've eaten. And rather than wait for that long for my pizza dough, I think I'd rather just work with a starter when I wish for that type of taste.

I believe that a few things have contributed to my ability to delay the dough fermentation.

- I use Active Dry Yeast rather than Instant, because I am not looking for instant results.  Although these yeasts are becoming closer in nature, I have found them still to be different.

- I no longer proof my yeast, since I'm looking to delay the yeast activity and I don't store my yeast that long.

- I always work with cool water, and I intermix my time between hand mixing and Kitchen Aid kneading.

- I still prefer a resting period. But I first add the full amount of water along with all ingredients (except yeast), then an amount of flour equivalent in weight to the full amount of water.  At times, I then add the yeast on top of the flour. On other occassions, I prefer to wait until the second batch of flour is added. I use a strong spatula to bring it together at this stage, which is easy because it's like a batter.

- After a resting period, I add the final amount of flour and then the yeast (if I have not added it already). I then do an initial mix by spatula and bring it together with my Kitchenaid mixer on the usual number 1. This takes less than a minute.

- I remove the dough from the hook (since it's always climbing). Then I continue on #1 for 2 minutes. By now, it's pretty smooth. I hand knead to get a feel for the dough (stickiness, etc.) for maybe a minute. Then I finish it off for another minute or two. I see no need for lengthy processing times, since I am only working with 3 or so doughs at a time, and I prefer an airy texture.

- If I'm going to use the dough in the next 2 days or so, I just split it up immediately and bag it. Otherwise, I stick it in a tin until I'm ready to use it, and then split it up and bag it the night before I use it.

[Pete-zza]

giotto,

I recall some of our discussions in the past on the forum regarding the late addition of active dry yeast to the dough and, it was with those discussions in mind, along with a more recent suggestion by member petesopizza, that I experimented recently with the late addition of IDY and the use of cold water as a way of extending the window of usability of the finished dough (a dough based on the Lehmann formulation) without sacrificing much, if anything, in the way of crust color, flavor or texture. As you will see, the collective suggestions were acknowledged in these two posts:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3587.msg30329.html#msg30329 and
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3919.msg32928/topicseen.html#msg32928.

As I noted yesterday on another thread, I plan at some point to use ADY instead of IDY in the new dough making method I have been using, but that is mainly to learn something new from the experiment. If my recent experiments have proved anything, I think it is that there is a lot of sugar locked up in the flour that can be released, or new sugars formed as postulated by member November, over a long period of fermentation. In my most recent experiment I increased the amount of yeast by more than twice the amount I normally use with the Lehmann dough formulation and that didn't seem to affect the results from a dough longevity standpoint.

Peter

[giotto]

Commercial yeast is aggressive. Refrigeration slows yeast activity; but as we know, it doesn't stop it. So I'm not surprised with minimal impact of additional yeast. I still take precaution. I have used cool water for some time now and don't even proof ADY any longer as mentioned above (I found with varous bread machine books and Pete-zza found with his Zo machine book a long time ago, it's not uncommon for ADY to be recommended with flour without proofing).

The type of flour is important to availability of sugar being locked up though. Organic flours like Giusto's Organic flours may not do so well. A discussion on this topic is covered here:
http://home.comcast.net/~keck-foundation1/pizza-crust-color.html

[Troy T]

Peter,
Could you please explain the cold temperatures and the amount of yeast used.  My house stays 72-74 all year round, no mater what the outside temperature is.  What would you consider the house temperatures vs using higher or normal yeast percentages?  Would not the final dough temperature be the deciding factor since it is a cold ferment?  Also awhile back I read a thread where you discussed a formula to get the correct water temperature for the proper finished dough temperature, can’t seem to find it again, can you please point it out?

Thanks,
Troy

[Pete-zza]

Troy,

I control water temperature and the amount of yeast I use based on the results I am trying to achieve and also to adjust for seasonal temperature variations. For example, if I want a dough to have a long fermentation, and all else being equal, I usually use colder water, less yeast, or a combination of both. If I want a dough to have a short fermentation, I usually use warmer water, more yeast, or a combination of both. Where I live in Texas, I am subject to seasonal changes in temperature, so as a precautionary measure I will often increase the amount of yeast in a dough formulation in winter, and reduce it in summer. If your room temperature is the same year round, you should be able to use pretty much the same dough formulation year round.

Irrespective of what I do in making my dough, I do pay attention to the finished dough temperature, and do my best to get it in the 70-80 degrees F range. Sometimes it falls a bit out of that range, but not by enough to pose a problem. Close is good enough. I think you will find this article of help in understanding how to control the finished dough temperature of your doughs: http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml. The trickiest part is determining the friction factor for your particular machine since it will vary depending on the machine and model used, dough batch size, machine speeds used, and other related factors. However, once you calculate it for a particular dough batch size, the value is usually close enough to use in a more general way. You can also use a less technical way of determining the proper water temperature based on a series of tests, as noted in the article.

Good luck.

Peter

EDIT (5/15/14): Since the link to the above Lehmann article is no longer operative, see the Wayback Machine link to the same article at http://web.archive.org/web/20070502014430/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml

[Troy T]

My first pizza, very good, but far from perfect.
I made my first dough on Sunday using the following recipe;

Flour (100%):          206.35 g  |  7.30 oz | 0.45 lbs
Water (60%):          123.81 g  |  4.40 oz | 0.27 lbs
Oil (1%):                  2.06 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):           3.61 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.65 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
IDY (0.40%):            0.83 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Sugar (0%):             0 g | 0 oz | 0 lbs | 0 tsp | 0 tbsp
Total (163.15%):     336.66 g | 11.88 oz | 0.74 lbs | TF = 0.105

All ingredients were measured by weight even the small ones, as I have a ammo reloading scale that measures down to .1 Grains. (1 Gram=15.43 Grains).  I rounded up from the original recipe flour and water weights due to my kitchen scale only weighing in .05 Oz increments.

I mixed the dough in a KA Professional 6 with a C-type dough hook.  The KA mixed the dough in to a ball fairly quickly, the dough was dry so I added about a teaspoon of water.  The mixer did not knead the dough very well at all, I am guessing due to the small batch size, so I kneaded it about 3 minutes by hand.  I could not get the ball smooth as some of the pictures I have seen of finished dough balls.  This one had a few cracks in it…Possibly due to under hydration or under kneading?

After 24 hours in the fridge, I inspected the dough and found it had absorbed the oil and was starting to form a skin.  I applied some more oil and put it back into the fridge. 

Below is a picture of the dough after 48 hours, it had many crevasses and craters in it and again not much like the pictures I have seen in the past for fermented dough. I set the dough on a floured counter with a little on top and covered it with plastic wrap.  It rested 2 hours and had a final temperature of 67 degrees. The dough was very easy to work with.  No other bench flour was needed to from the pizza other than the flour used for resting.

The final results are shown below.  The crust nice and crisp and had a great flavor, the center was somewhat dense and was very chewy.   Over all I thought it was very good for my first attempt.  I did not think it should have been that chewy and I would like the crust to be a little more airy and less dense.  I thought the AP flour made was suppose to make softer crust?  Again I believe it may have had something to due with the kneading or the hydration levels…Any suggestions on this.

Thank you in advance for your comments and suggestions.

Troy

[dinks]

TROY-T.
   Good morning to you. Troy, I am responding because you asked for comments & suggestions. One reason you expierenced a dense dough as opposed to a airy dough mass is  because the ratio of salt & yeast is not proper.
Let me explain, You are using .4% yeast & 1.75% salt. That equats to almost 5X the amount of yeast.  As you know Troy, salt does 2 things in a yeasted lean bread dough. It provides flavor & 2nd, it controls the yeast activity & also I might add it helps control bacteria growth as well. When the salt came into contact with the yeast before the yeast began it's activity the salt began to destoy the minimum amount of yeast that you employed. Hence  your dough mass was dense. Troy as you further know, salt requires hydration your hydration amount is proper but the large amount of salt used more than it's share of hydration because of the excess amount. I believe your recipe is a viable pizza recipe. However, humor me Troy, increase the yeast slightly to 5/8ths (.625)% off the flour. Reduce the salt amount to twice the yeast amount in weight. One more thing Troy, please consider adding the salt during the last 4 minutes of mixing. I will tell you why. First of all this is the way the world class bakers do it & for a reason... besides the reasons as aforemention, when salt is added to the dough mass it has a tendency to "TIGHTEN" up the dough mass, hence the why of the MIXER didn't mix the dough very well. There is nothing wrong with your mixer that a proper mixing proceedure cannot help. One more thing, The reason your dough didn't handle well at the beginning is your dough gluten was suffering due to the battle of the salt & yeast.
But Troy as you know as it slowly ferments the gluten begins to become stronger that is part & parcel of the fermentation sequence, hence the why it began to handle better as time went on. Troy I am finished now. I hope you will try my suggestions. Good luck to you my friend & enjoy the rest of the day.

  ~DINKS.

[November]

dinks,

Are you sure your 2:1 ratio isn't for ADY?  The ADY equivalent of Troy's posted formula is about 2:1.  It seems like Troy is using a fairly normal amount to me.

- red.november

[Pete-zza]

Dinks,

As I have reported before, possibly before you became a member of the forum, on the Lehmann thread I have always tried to be faithful to the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation in my adaptation of that formulation to a home environment. The Lehmann dough formulation is essentially the one posted at the Recipe Bank at the PMQ.com website at http://www.pmq.com/recipe/view_recipe.php?id=52.

From time to time I have deviated from the Lehmann dough formulation and/or the instructions largely for experimental purposes, but by and large I have tried to follow the instructions given by Tom Lehmann in making doughs based on his formulation. For example, the instructions call for adding the salt to the water and adding the yeast (e.g., IDY) to the flour. When I do this, I thoroughly dissolve the salt in the water so that it gets its hydration from the water rather than from fluids from the yeast cells themselves. This is a common approach, and one that pizzanapoletana (Marco) stressed to me and others some time ago as being the proper way to deal with the salt in relation to the yeast. It is also the approach that has been used for time immemorial in Naples with Neapolitan doughs. Since the IDY is dispersed in the flour, it does not get immediate and direct contact with the salt. It might even begin rehydration by virtue of being exposed to moisture in the flour before the flour and yeast are added to the water.

As for the relative quantities of yeast and salt, I have used as little as 0.17% IDY with 1.75% salt. I am sure that on some occasion I used even less yeast. I described one Lehmann experiment I conducted using 0.17% IDY, with very good results, at
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17956.html#msg17956 (Reply 280). I have long theorized that the high percentage of salt in relation to the yeast in the Lehmann dough formulation, along with regulating the finished dough temperature, was intentional--to keep the dough balls from rising too much in the dough boxes or dough trays while under refrigeration. As you know, salt acts as a regulator of the fermentation process and its use at fairly high levels helps restrain volume growth of the dough. Keeping the dough balls compact and slow fermenting seems to be consistent with the dough management and inventory practices commonly used by pizza operators.

Troy should by all means try using more yeast as you suggest, or even less salt, although I don’t deem the present ratio to be out of order based on my experimentation with the Lehmann dough formulation. I once by mistake tripled the recited amount of IDY in the basic Lehmann dough formulation and got very good results. So I know that using more yeast works. Troy might also try adding the salt late in the dough making process, as you also suggest. I have done this on occasion when using the classic Professor Calvel autolyse method that you some time ago described to me. I have even reported on my results from doing this elsewhere in this thread. Many of our members are very fond of using autolyse of similar rest periods when making their doughs, including the Lehmann doughs, so it is clearly an option that Troy might want to consider once he feels he is ready to tackle that aspect of his dough preparation.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Troy,

By and large, I think your maiden effort with the Lehmann dough formulation turned out quite well. This leads me to believe that using bread flour may be something you may want to consider in a future effort.

I also think you put your finger on some of the causes of the stiffness in the dough. Looking at your photos, the crevices and cracks in your dough are typical of those often found in doughs that are under-hydrated, that is, don’t contain enough water in relation to the amount of flour. If that was the problem in your case, then the simple solution is to just increase the amount of water. To modify the Lehmann dough formulation to achieve this objective, you can visit the Lehmann dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html and reenter the baker’s percents you last used but change the hydration percent to something above the 60% you used. Even then, you might find that you need more water to get the desired finished dough consistency and feel at the end of the dough making process.

Note also that at this time of year, doughs can also turn out a bit drier because of room temperature and humidity factors. Tom Lehmann discussed this aspect of dough making in a PMQ article at http://www.pmq.com/mag/2006march/lehmann.php. Remember also that even when one accurately measures out ingredients, there is frequently a need to make minor adjustments in the mixer bowl. BTW, I wouldn’t become too preoccupied with trying to weigh out the lightweight ingredients like salt, yeast and oil (and sugar, if used). I, too, have a special scale for weighing out small quantities of lightweight ingredients but I have discovered that the volume measurements recited in the Lehmann data are quite accurate. Weighing out the flour and water should be sufficient for your purposes.

If you’d like, you can also alter the Lehmann dough formulation to produce a smaller dough ball weight that, when used to make the same size pizza you made, can have a thinner finished crust. The easy way to do this using the Lehmann tool is to use a smaller thickness factor. For example, you might try using 0.095-0.10. I can't promise you that the crust will be less chewy. That is a crust characteristic that is common with the Lehmann NY style. Using a higher protein flour usually increases the chewiness of the crust. But it may not be as noticeable if you use a thinner crust.

Like you, I have difficulties making small amounts of dough using my KitchenAid stand mixer with the C-hook. For this reason, I have been experimenting lately with alternative approaches to prepare my pizza doughs (including Lehmann doughs), which I have discussed at this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251. I am not proposing that you abandon your current approach in favor of the one I have been testing, but there are some simple measures that you can take that I think will improve the hydration and quality of your dough. For example, using sifted flour and the whisk and flat beater attachments of your KitchenAid mixer can improve the handling qualities of the dough, even at high hydration levels. I discovered also that I can dispense with the flat beater attachment and finish the kneading process by hand, in the bowl and on the work surface. If someone doesn't have a stand mixer, the action of the whisk can be replaced by an electric hand mixer operated at low speed.

Peter

EDIT (3/22/13): For the Wayback Machine link to the Lehmann PMQ article, see http://web.archive.org/web/20110824144931/http://pmq.com/mag/2006march/lehmann.php

[chiguy]

 Troy t,
The cracks you see in the dough ball are caused by the lack of kneading.  A 3 minutes hand knead will not be enough to develop a uniform gluten structure. The lack of gluten structure is also when you see bubbles form in the dough ball.
 As lehmann has explained the dough should be mixed until it has a smooth satin appearance. I think you have done a nice job but you will need too increase the mix time or the hand knead time at the very least 5-10 minutes. Also it may help to incorporate a bowl rest/autolyse in the mixing process.     Chiguy

[joebot]

Ok, little problem with lehmanns style last weekend. I made up 2 -12 inch - Lehmann recipe for two 12-inch pizzas
Flour (100%), KASL high-gluten, 14.30 oz. (3 c. plus 3 T. plus 1 t.)
Water (63%), 9.01 oz. (1 1/8 c.)
Salt (1.75%), 0.25 oz. (a bit over 1 1/4 t.)
Oil (1%), 0.14 oz. (7/8 t.)
IDY (0.25%), 0.04 oz. (a bit over 1/3 t.)
Total dough ball weight = 23.74 oz.
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105
 
the dough looked fine and was mixed for about 10 minutes on 2nd speed, i included a 20 min autolyse and the dough rested in the fridge  for 24 hours before being taken out and left to warm for 2 hours. When I tried to handle the dough it was sticky, soupy and tried to get away from me - it stretched out and was very slack. So did I over work the dough,under work it or what? The dough ball was about 78° when it went in the fridge, and I used the method that Pete-zza posted for mixing in the thread fo the NY Lehmann style pizzas. The dough used was HG from Eagle mills that I get from a baker down the street.
 Thanks for any help or ideas.

 
 Joe   

[Pete-zza]

Joe,

Did you use weight or volume measurements and, if volume measurements were used, how did you measure out the flour and water using your measuring cups? I used to convert weight measurements of flour to volume measurements as an accommodation to those who did not use scales but I was subsequently informed that I tend to have a light hand in making those types of conversions. Hence, I have stopped the practice of making those conversions. Instead, one would be better advised to use member November's mass/volume tool at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/.

Apart from the above possibility, and assuming that you did not make an error in measuring out the flour and water, which can easily happen if volume measurements were used, it is possible that your hydration level was too high in relation to the flour you used. From what I have been able to determine, the Eagle Mills flour is a ConAgra bread flour made from hard white wheat. It is intended for artisan type breads, and pizza dough is not among the specified applications listed at the ConAgra website. Most high-gluten flours are made of hard red spring wheat. Like the KASL, ConAgra's high-gluten flours are made from hard red spring wheat and are specified for use in making pizza doughs and other bread products. I don't know the absorption rate of the Eagle Mills flour but I would guess that it is maybe a few percent lower than the 63% hydration you used. Next time I would lower the hydration percent if you plan to continue to use the Eagle Mills flour. If you use the Lehmann dough calculator you should be able to recalculate the ingredient quantities so that the total dough weight remains the same. 

You also indicated that you kneaded the dough at speed 2 for ten minutes and that the finished dough temperature was 78 degrees F. It's possible that the dough fermented at a faster rate because of the elevated finished dough temperature but if you put the dough promptly into the refrigerator it should have held up well enough to be workable in normal fashion after 24 hours. Over time I have gravitated toward shorter overall knead times at lower mixer speeds but I don't think what you did was the source of the problem you experienced.

Peter