A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: Are American Pizzas (New York etc) made with hard or soft wheat?  (Read 981 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline amolapizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 675
  • Location: Luxembourg / Spain
  • If pizza is food for the gods, what are we..
Re: Are American Pizzas (New York etc) made with hard or soft wheat?
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2019, 07:14:00 AM »
An old thread, but I asked some Italians the other day about hard vs soft wheat.

It appears that in Italian grano tenero (soft grain) refers to T. aestivum, and grano duro (hard grain) refers to T. durum. 

If I haven't misunderstood Americans refer to T. aestivum when they talk about hard or soft wheat?

To me that seems to suggest that the discussion often is confused simply due to a translation error when we discuss hard vs soft wheat in the context of Italian vs American wheat..
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5822
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: Are American Pizzas (New York etc) made with hard or soft wheat?
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2019, 01:54:36 PM »
In the U.S. as well as Canada durum wheat is a different type of wheat than the hard red wheats used for making strong flours. The durum wheat produces gluten that is very tough and elastic which is excellent for pasta production which is why we typically reserve durum for use in making pasta, it is also widely used in making oriental noodles. The types of wheat used for milling into flour for bread and roll production are varieties of hard red winter, hard red spring, or hard white wheat. We also have varieties of soft wheat which can be either soft red or soft white wheat varieties. The soft wheats are typically lower in gluten forming proteins which also produce a softer, more extensible gluten characteristic. In the U.S. and Canada soft wheat flours are reserved for use in making pastries, cookies and biscuits which is why they are referred to as "pastry flours".
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline amolapizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 675
  • Location: Luxembourg / Spain
  • If pizza is food for the gods, what are we..
Re: Are American Pizzas (New York etc) made with hard or soft wheat?
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2019, 02:32:33 PM »
Thanks for the confirmation Tom!

This is a subject that has confused me for years reading about pizza, baking and flour.

So to put it simply when Italians talk about grano tenero, they are talking about wheat (T. aestivum), this would include both hard and soft American varieties. They aren't referring to what Americans call soft wheat.  In fact when we buy Italian 00 pizza/bread flour, chances are high that they contain some American hard wheat in order to get the desired characteristics.

I'm happy to have taken part in this discussion as it has cleared up quite a few mysteries for me.  It's amazing how confusing it can be just talking about wheat flour... :)
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5822
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: Are American Pizzas (New York etc) made with hard or soft wheat?
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2019, 04:18:14 PM »
While I can't prove it, my thoughts have always been that the Italian "00" flours probably contained a portion of U.S. or Canadian hard wheat to give it the longer fermentation tolerance that we see in some of the newer flours. I don't follow the Italian wheat varieties or the wheat breeding programs associated with developing their wheat so I have to plead total ignorance but I have seen what the breeders can and have done with U.S. wheat varieties so it wouldn't surprise me at all if they have developed soft wheat varieties with decent fermentation tolerance. To give you an example, wwaayy back in the 70's it was said that hard red winter wheat could not be developed with much more than about 16% protein content, the breeders proved that to be wrong, very wrong as then developed a couple of varieties with protein contents approaching 25%, yes! 25% protein content! I was able to test some of the flour from those super high protein content wheat varieties and boy were they ever STRONG! They were so strong that we couldn't over mix them in our mixers and fermentation tolerance was through the roof! Those characteristics were so diametrically opposed to what was desired that further work on those varieties was stopped and needless to say seed was never released for planting, no one wanted to run a risk of any of that stuff getting mixed into the normal HRW crop, and there was a fear that the DNA of the protein might be different too which could potentially open a Pandora's Box with all other wheat varieties. Moral of the story: Never challenge a wheat breeder, and never tell them that it can't be done!
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline amolapizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 675
  • Location: Luxembourg / Spain
  • If pizza is food for the gods, what are we..
Re: Are American Pizzas (New York etc) made with hard or soft wheat?
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2019, 08:39:57 AM »
Wow, that's amazing!

I'm ignorant as to the varieties of wheat grown here in Europe, but by now I've convinced myself that Italians (and I think Europeans in general) just refer to it as wheat (grano tenero).  If I ever get the chance again to discuss wheat with Italian flour experts I'll make a point of trying to find out more.

I've have been told (by a flour expert and several professional pizza bakers) that Italian wheat flour does indeed often contain American wheat in order to achieve the right properties to make a good pizza flour.  Italians also mostly always mill to a very fine particle size and high extraction rate (00 flour).  In order to produce the other flour categories (0/1/2/Integrale), the discarded material is then mixed back in in order to comply with the legally prescribed ash content.  The law just prescribes the ash content for the various categories, so this is the cheapest and most efficient way to comply with the law.

Note that there are apparently some artesanal flours that are indeed milled in an ancient manner, but this is mostly stone milled whole grain flour with a small distribution and a high price tag, or it's just a marketing gimmick and a brazen lie.. :)

I've also been told that it's a myth that Italian flours are additive free. I was told that ascorbic acid is often used as a dough conditioner, but it appeared from the discussion that other substances are also used.  AFAIK this isn't defined by Italian law, though I think some substances are indeed forbidden.

It's also interesting to note that Italian law has changed.  Due to several food stuff scandals over the years Italian foodstuff manufacturers are strictly regulated and controlled.  There are many controls and if caught doing something wrong by the inspectors, the company is immediately closed and there will be heavy fines and even possible jail time for the responsible people.

All these discussions of strong flour and high protein content makes me wonder about something else.  Is it possible that the strength of American flour leads to the apparently common practice of maturing the dough for days in the fridge?

To me it appears that Italians mostly use either a short maturation of 8-12 hours, or a longer 24-32 hours maturation at ambient temperature.  While I have the impression that pizzerias in other parts of Europe do use the fridge, but purely for logistic reasons.  One of my best friends here in Luxembourg ran a pizzeria for many years, and he'd use the fridge but just in order not to run out of, or end up with leftover dough balls.  Note that I've also heard of some Italian pizzerias putting the left over dough balls into the fridge overnight in order to be able to use them for lunch next day.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2019, 08:42:17 AM by amolapizza »
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5822
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: Are American Pizzas (New York etc) made with hard or soft wheat?
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2019, 11:57:44 AM »
Your assumptions about refrigerating the dough are absolutely correct. In addition to allowing the dough to be held for days rather than hours it also provides for much improved dough consistency and financial return, just ask Papa John's if it's any cheaper to provide refrigerated dough from a commissary once a week as opposed to making fresh dough every day at each store.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline amolapizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 675
  • Location: Luxembourg / Spain
  • If pizza is food for the gods, what are we..
Re: Are American Pizzas (New York etc) made with hard or soft wheat?
« Reply #26 on: December 26, 2019, 04:59:38 AM »
Very interesting!

And yes I can see the advantages of using a fridge for commercial operations.

I have also personally noted that a cooler dough is a lot easier to handle than a warmer dough.  I've mostly avoided using the fridge so far, mainly because I have a small one with not a lot of free space, and it's also not very stable in temperature (due to opening many times a day).

I was however mystified by how much fridge maturation is used on this board, and also the prevalence of multiple day refrigeration.  Maybe those of us in Europe or using European flour should take this advice with a pinch of salt.

Thank you very much for all the insightful posts Tom!  I've learnt a lot reading them!
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

Offline Michiel

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 114
  • Age: 27
  • Location: Belgium
  • Passion for Pizza
Re: Are American Pizzas (New York etc) made with hard or soft wheat?
« Reply #27 on: December 26, 2019, 05:11:09 AM »
Hello,

I don't have so much experience as my fellow forum members but I also first started with fermentating my dough in a cooler because almost everyone here does this.
I always thought this was because of the more complex taste the dough gets after more time of rest.

I did the test and I actually liked my short fermentation dough (12 hours) more then the long fermentation dough.
However, the difference that I encountered was rather small.

Offline amolapizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 675
  • Location: Luxembourg / Spain
  • If pizza is food for the gods, what are we..
Re: Are American Pizzas (New York etc) made with hard or soft wheat?
« Reply #28 on: December 26, 2019, 05:22:25 AM »
I probably should add a qualifier to my statement about Italian practices.

I do think that for higher hydration pizza in teglia / a pala (thicker (pan) pizza served cut in pieces), a stronger flour and a 24/48 hour fridge maturation is often used.  My statement refers to the normal round thinner pizza, such as Neapolitan and Roman tonda.
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

Offline amolapizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 675
  • Location: Luxembourg / Spain
  • If pizza is food for the gods, what are we..
Re: Are American Pizzas (New York etc) made with hard or soft wheat?
« Reply #29 on: December 26, 2019, 06:13:30 AM »
I did the test and I actually liked my short fermentation dough (12 hours) more then the long fermentation dough.
However, the difference that I encountered was rather small.

FWIW, I've started doing about 32 (24+8) hours of maturation at room temperature.  I started experimenting with this after reading about how Da Michele makes their dough, but have mostly applied it to the Roman Tonda style.  My feeling is that the dough is indeed tastier than the traditional short maturation times used for this style.  I also have the impression that I get less thirsty with this style of dough, but it could be my imagination.  A lot more pizza experimentation will have to be made in order to be sure of this.  I also really need to get back to Neapolitan pizza someday to see what conclusion I can draw for this style.

The drawback of a long room temperature maturation is that I need to use ridiculously small amounts of yeast and it gets difficult to hit the perfect fermentation spot at the right time.  It's hard to measure such small amounts and small variations in temperature can have a larger influence on the final result.  By using the fridge the exact amount of yeast would be less critical and it would probably be easier to reach the desired amount of fermentation at baking time.  Still it seems I'm slowly but surely getting a feeling for the fermentation and by moving my dough box to a slightly warmer or cooler location I can target the desired result quite well.  It also helps that I'm slowly but surely learning to extend the pizza even if it's slightly over or under the fermentation point that I'm looking for.

Still I have to laugh at myself..!  If I understand how this works, 32 hours at room temperature is the equivalent of multiple day fridge maturation, so maybe I'm simply barking up the wrong tree by using TA instead of TC.. :)  So many different ways to do this, so much to learn, and so easy to fool oneself about the results..  Still a lot of fun, and a lot of tasty pizza to eat..
« Last Edit: December 26, 2019, 06:19:46 AM by amolapizza »
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline foreplease

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5637
  • Age: 60
  • Location: St. Joseph, MI
Re: Are American Pizzas (New York etc) made with hard or soft wheat?
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2019, 10:41:03 AM »
Jack (Amol), keep in mind with those very small amounts of yeast that your water temp and final dough temp can make a huge difference too. Have a target temp in mind and keep track of it from batch to batch with or vs room temp. Itís probably the easiest variable to control and gives you one less place to have your fermentation get too slow or, more likely, too fast.
-Tony

Offline amolapizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 675
  • Location: Luxembourg / Spain
  • If pizza is food for the gods, what are we..
Re: Are American Pizzas (New York etc) made with hard or soft wheat?
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2019, 12:38:18 PM »
Yes lately I do.  I try to both target the FDT and log it together with the recipe and fermentation times.  Unfortunately I've also discovered that the thermometer I've used neither is very reliable nor correct in it's readings.. :)  It's off both for boiling water as well as iced water..  Kind of just as annoying as unreliable scales are... :)

I also bought a 4 channel K probe digital thermometer from china, which seems more accurate, but also shows different values for all 4 probes.  Still maybe it's not necessary to be accurate down to a tenth of a degree, so I've started using that one.  But I can see something even more reliable in my future.

Still the biggest inconsistency at the moment is fluctuating RT and I really ought to do something about that.  I'd like to get more precise with my temperatures in order to get a more consistent result.
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14101
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Are American Pizzas (New York etc) made with hard or soft wheat?
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2019, 03:01:41 PM »
Beer cooler.  ;)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline amolapizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 675
  • Location: Luxembourg / Spain
  • If pizza is food for the gods, what are we..
Re: Are American Pizzas (New York etc) made with hard or soft wheat?
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2019, 03:53:34 PM »
Yes I was looking at something like that last year, but didn't find anything that will take my wooden dough box :(

Maybe time to look again... :)
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14101
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Are American Pizzas (New York etc) made with hard or soft wheat?
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2019, 04:01:07 PM »
Yes I was looking at something like that last year, but didn't find anything that will take my wooden dough box :(

Maybe time to look again... :)
get you a big ole honkin plug in one!!    💪🍕😎🍻
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


 

wordpress