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Author Topic: Activitating Ischia Culture  (Read 1495 times)

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Offline Fat_Tony

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Re: Activitating Ischia Culture
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2019, 10:17:07 AM »
Awesome, although I'm surprised that worked out for you. In my research I've read about the negative results when baking with more than 1 culture at the same time. From the different sources I've read it states that the lactobacillus (friendly bacteria) and wild yeast you cultivate in a sourdough starter don't really play nicely with other yeast and lactobacilli from a different culture when mixed together. They sort of get comfortable in their own respective environments. Anyway I'm no scientist but that's just what I've read.

I made a dough with my Ischia starter on the wknd and it turned out really nicely! Such a great and subtle sour flavour that I have no doubt will develop over time. Right before I put it to sleep in the fridge for the week I fed it and stuck it in a 28-30C oven for 2 hours or so until it doubled in size then I sealed it and stuck it in the fridge. So I would say it has been activated successfully. I'm going to use it again this wknd!

Offline sk

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Re: Activitating Ischia Culture
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2019, 11:41:49 AM »
Hey Tony:  Thanks for the update.  I have kept mine on the counter.  It doubles reliably is 6-8 hours.  It never go's 2 inches over the base but it does double.  I am making all Ischia this weekend.

I'm curious about your refrig procedure.  I was under the impression, feed, let it sit for an hour or so and put in fridge.  If you let it double, and then put it in the fridge, it will be almost out of food while it rests.

What do you do when you take it back out for use?
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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Activitating Ischia Culture
« Reply #22 on: June 04, 2019, 01:28:06 PM »
Hi Tony: 

Status - I have been feeding every 12 hours.  I have activity and can see bubbles on the top and sides.  I watched very closely today and it rose and started to fall at the 6 hour mark.  The rise was about an inch.  This seems to be where my SD starts to falter.  I have been feeding my Camalodi as well, every 24 hours.  It started to fall at the 4 hour mark.  It rose a little more than an inch.  I have never gotten a 2 - 3 inch rise.  The Camalodi passed the float test, the Ischia did not.  Both smell about the same, not strong in any way.

As you seem to have a bit more experience with SD than I do, what are your thoughts?

I made one SD dough for pizza.  My guess is it will come out just ok with little oven spring.
How much is one inch increase in percentage? Ideally, the starter should at least double, even triple in volume.
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline Fat_Tony

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Re: Activitating Ischia Culture
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2019, 03:36:25 PM »
Hey Tony:  Thanks for the update.  I have kept mine on the counter.  It doubles reliably is 6-8 hours.  It never go's 2 inches over the base but it does double.  I am making all Ischia this weekend.

I'm curious about your refrig procedure.  I was under the impression, feed, let it sit for an hour or so and put in fridge.  If you let it double, and then put it in the fridge, it will be almost out of food while it rests.

What do you do when you take it back out for use?

I would disagree with your assessment that it runs out of food while it rests. It is my understanding that when you put a SD culture in the fridge the cool temperature makes the yeast and bacteria lay dormant.  It's like hitting the pause button. So, by proofing my culture before I rest it I am creating a lot of activity inside the culture then hitting the pause button. So when I'm ready to use the culture again it will hit the ground running bc I have prepped it by giving it a boost before it's nap. When I plan on using it again I'll remove it from the fridge 24hrs before I make my dough and feed it twice at 12 hr intervals.

I haven't been able to try this yet but the next time I do this I plan on removing the starter from the fridge about 26-27hrs before I make my dough. I'll discard/feed straight away and let it sit at RT. 12hrs later I'll discard/feed again and let sit for another 12hrs at RT. Finally, I'll discard/feed 2-3hrs before I make my dough and proof the SD culture @29-30C for the last 2-3 hrs. This will boost activity and I will try to nail the timing so I use the starter at it's peak! right before it collapses.

I haven't done experiments on this YET, but I will and get back to you. I am unsure if it will take 2-3 hrs for it to hit it's peek but this is a guesstimate based on the last time I fed my starter before I refrigerated it.

Offline sk

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Re: Activitating Ischia Culture
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2019, 08:20:07 PM »
Great!  I will look forward to hearing how that workflow turns out.
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Offline Fat_Tony

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Re: Activitating Ischia Culture
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2019, 10:04:22 AM »
Great Scott!

I went back and re-read some things about the cultures and it seems I have misinterpreted the info. When you refrigerate a culture it goes semi-dormant. Which is probably why you still need to feed it once and awhile. Also, the method I mentioned in trying (proofing the culture before use) I also misinterpreted! (I'm assuming you're interested in this stuff since you have a culture now so hopefully I'm not bothering you) The info as I understand it is that it's still a good idea to proof your culture before use to really get it going but the temperature and time matters. Proofing temps from 80-85F (26-29C) will raise the acidity of a culture. Acidity inhibits yeast (rise of the dough) but creates a more sour flavour. Proofing at temps of 65-70F (18-21C) create a culture with the opposite characteristics (more rise, mild sourness). Anyway, sorry about that! Total scatter brain sometimes.

In that Sourdough book it also mentions a method of fully activating your yeast and then proofing it before use that seems semi complicated but I'm still going to try it out. I think it will take some experimenting to find a perfect time and temperature range in which to proof my culture that will yield me a balanced rise to sourness ratio. I'll let you know how it goes. I have no idea if any of these methods work and it might only be for bread making.. who knows ???

I feel like sometimes we all think about things too much when we should just be making pizzas! lol

Offline HansB

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Re: Activitating Ischia Culture
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2019, 10:59:10 AM »
Bacterial Fermentation

Bacteria are primitive one-celled organisms. The types of bacteria common in bread dough consume the same simple sugars used by yeast cells. The primary by-products of bacteria in dough fermentation, though, are two types of organic acids: lactic acid and acetic acid. Lactic acid is also found naturally in milk and in concentrated form it produces the tangy flavor we find in yogurt. Acetic acid is found in all varieties of vinegar and is more sour than lactic acid.

ORGANIC ACIDS PROVIDE STRENGTH AND FLAVOR

The types of bacteria that produce these acids can thrive in temperatures of 50-90F and are collectively referred to as lactic bacteria. As bakers, we are concerned with two types of LAB, homofermentative and heterofermentative.

These names may seem hard to pronounce and even harder to remember, but it is important to identify them and explain a bit about their behavior. Yeast must be regulated to control how fast the dough rises, but the bacteria primarily determine how well your dough will mature and how the bread will taste. If you want your bread to develop good handling properties naturally and to taste good, you must pay as much attention to the quantity and type of bacteria in your dough as you do the activity of the yeast.

This is, perhaps, the one concept in artisan style baking that escapes bakers who look for easy, time saving ways to make bread. Unfortunately, bacterial fermentation almost always proceeds more slowly than yeast fermentation, much more slowly. Scientist have successfully isolated strains of the yeast saccharomyces cerevisiae that can speed carbon dioxide production considerably. Lactic bacteria have so far been much less cooperative; the bacteria in bread dough we make today probably arenít different from those present in the times of Moses.

HOMOFERMENTATIVE BACTERIA

Homofermentative bacteria prefer environments that are wet and moderately warm, perhaps 70-95F. Their chief by-product during fermentation is lactic acid which is fairly mild in it's sourness compared to the sharper acids contained in lemon juice or  vinegar. Homofermentative bacteria can survive in somewhat drier conditions and within other temperature ranges but they do better in the warmer range.

HETEROFERMENTATIVE BACTERIA

Heterofermentative Bacteria do better in somewhat drier and cooler environments, they prefer temperatures of about 50-65F. They produce both lactic acid and acetic acid as by-products as well as a small amount of CO2. Acetic acid is also found commonly in vinegar and itís flavor is much sharper that that of lactic acid. Heterofermmentative bacteria can survive in some numbers as different temperatures than specified and in wetter environments, but drier and cooler situations favor their reproduction and their ability to ferment bread dough.

Daniel T. DiMuzio, Bread Baking.
Hans

Offline sk

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Re: Activitating Ischia Culture
« Reply #27 on: June 05, 2019, 12:31:21 PM »
Great Scott!

I went back and re-read some things about the cultures and it seems I have misinterpreted the info. When you refrigerate a culture it goes semi-dormant. Which is probably why you still need to feed it once and awhile. Also, the method I mentioned in trying (proofing the culture before use) I also misinterpreted! (I'm assuming you're interested in this stuff since you have a culture now so hopefully I'm not bothering you) The info as I understand it is that it's still a good idea to proof your culture before use to really get it going but the temperature and time matters. Proofing temps from 80-85F (26-29C) will raise the acidity of a culture. Acidity inhibits yeast (rise of the dough) but creates a more sour flavour. Proofing at temps of 65-70F (18-21C) create a culture with the opposite characteristics (more rise, mild sourness). Anyway, sorry about that! Total scatter brain sometimes.

In that Sourdough book it also mentions a method of fully activating your yeast and then proofing it before use that seems semi complicated but I'm still going to try it out. I think it will take some experimenting to find a perfect time and temperature range in which to proof my culture that will yield me a balanced rise to sourness ratio. I'll let you know how it goes. I have no idea if any of these methods work and it might only be for bread making.. who knows ???

I feel like sometimes we all think about things too much when we should just be making pizzas! lol

Hey Tony, no you are not bothering me and yes, I am interested!  I have been working on figuring out the timing of what you outlined, proofing the culture.  I'm working toward the right feeding ratio of starter/flour/water to know when the rise will be +/- 30 minutes at peak.  Then, I want to make dough.  I have to sort of roll with the temperatures as I don't have a controlled environment.  My basement is 70-72 so that's what I work with.  Winter, I will have to adjust to slightly lower temps.  Once I get down a dependable dough rise, I might make slight adjustments to tweak the flavor.

HansB, thanks for the info.  I will have to digest all that!

Buona Cucina!
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Offline sk

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Re: Activitating Ischia Culture
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2019, 08:46:21 PM »
Made my first pizza with the new culture.  It's warm here in Georgia and my basement only holds at 72 degrees right now.  I followed TXCraig's chart for fermentation.  This new culture is strong!  It was a bit over fermented.  The dough stretched a bit to thin in the middle and pulled into a "football" in the oven.  Not really photo worthy.  However, the taste was still good.  Only a slight hint of sourness.  I actually sat and ate some IDY crust and SD crust side by side.  I could not tell a huge difference.  Both were very good.  I cant wait to make more pizzas with this culture.
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