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Author Topic: Tinkering with poolish  (Read 1933 times)

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Offline pizzainthe6ix

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Re: Tinkering with poolish
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2019, 10:44:53 AM »
Peter, I'll pop in here and note that there was a piece of information....maybe from Evelyn or Rosada..that noted the poolish can be successfully used in the dough up to three days after peaking if held in cold fridge.


You know me to be nothing if not scientifically inert, but this worked fine for me. I'm not sure if I've done 3 days, but certainly 2, and often with the poolish IDY being the total formula IDY..none added  to final mix. Not only are the poolish and yeast still plenty active, if I have an issue, it's usually over-fermentation. 


I haven't been able to make a clear connection with how to utilize Craig's terrific chart when using a poolish.I wondered at one point if the poolish acted as its own entity regarding fermentation times...as   SD levain fermentation timing is based more on the levain total amount than the inoculation. It doesn't seem to be the case, I believe the amount of IDY is still the main factor in length of fermentation , but I find that following the chart when using a poolish...and mine is 43% of total flour..ie 150 poolish (flour and water) to 350 total formula flour,,,will result in a dough that's moving too fast for my desired multi-day timing. RT fermenrtation in the process has been a tricky issue and a wine cooler in on my future wish list.


Thanks
I am happy you brought up the chart/poolish as it's something I am facing right now.  Using a poolish with the chart and a 24hr RT results in balls that were slightly under proofed.  I tried again using the chart with a 48hr proof (24 in bulk/24 in balls) at a slightly lower temperature and the bulk dough was over fermented.  I think my room was a bit too warm for the amount of yeast I used

My hypothesis is that if a very low amount if yeast is being used in the poolish (around .1% of poolish flour) then you can use the chart with fairly close accuracy because the amount of yeast in the poolish is insignificant. Both Tony G and Ken Forkish used different recipes that call for Poolish.  Tony uses .25% yeast of poolish flour and the poolish is 18% of total flour whereas Forkish uses .16% yeast of poolish flour and the poolish makes up 100% of total flour.  Both have similar fermentation times/temperatures.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Tinkering with poolish
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2019, 11:15:59 AM »
Forkish uses .16% yeast of poolish flour and the poolish makes up 100% of total flour.  Both have similar fermentation times/temperatures.

How can a poolish use 100% of the total flour?
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Offline pizzainthe6ix

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Re: Tinkering with poolish
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2019, 11:41:07 AM »
How can a poolish use 100% of the total flour?
Maybe I was not clear in how I wrote it  :-[

Poolish:
500G Flour
500G Water
Total Weight = 1000G

Final Dough:
500G Flour
130G Water

Total Formula
1000G Flour so the Preferment amount would be equal to 100% of the total flour being used



Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Tinkering with poolish
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2019, 11:48:33 AM »
Wouldn't that be 200% if talking in baker's %? 1000g poolish / 500g final dough flour?

I think a more clear way to say it is something like: preferment 50% of the formula flour at 100% HR.

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline pizzainthe6ix

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Re: Tinkering with poolish
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2019, 11:55:25 AM »
Wouldn't that be 200% if talking in baker's %? 1000g poolish / 500g final dough flour?

I think a more clear way to say it is something like: preferment 50% of the formula flour at 100% HR.
Yes, much more clear ;-).

This is actually how Ken Forkish expresses it in his book; however, I was just entering the language used in the Preferment calculator (to make this recipe work)  :D

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tinkering with poolish
« Reply #25 on: June 05, 2019, 01:37:36 PM »
Peter, I'll pop in here and note that there was a piece of information....maybe from Evelyn or Rosada..that noted the poolish can be successfully used in the dough up to three days after peaking if held in cold fridge.

Thanks
Bill,

I could not find anything by Rosada or Evelyn on the particular method you described. However, we have had several members who make a preferment, incorporate it in the final dough, and then cold ferment the dough for up to about three days. See, for example, the post at Reply 5 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=33040.msg404556#msg404556 and also check out the links in that post. If I have misunderstood your question, please let me know.

Peter

Offline pizzainthe6ix

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Re: Tinkering with poolish
« Reply #26 on: June 05, 2019, 03:50:20 PM »
Bill,

I could not find anything by Rosada or Evelyn on the particular method you described. However, we have had several members who make a preferment, incorporate it in the final dough, and then cold ferment the dough for up to about three days. See, for example, the post at Reply 5 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=33040.msg404556#msg404556 and also check out the links in that post. If I have misunderstood your question, please let me know.

Peter
I echo this.  I have often made dough that I cold ferment for 2-3 days with a Poolish. I started making dough from Tony G's book and he describes this exact method.

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Tinkering with poolish
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2019, 10:27:07 AM »
Thanks Peter..Well, you know me  : What good is a fact if I can't make it up myself? :-D  Actually, te information about poolish being good under refrigeration for up to 3 days was from Reinhart, Bread Bakers Apprentice pg 104.


I've actually had good results regularly going even longer with my poolish dough as in Reply 98 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54900.80


Craig's link to the Rosada article was interesting...not surprisingly for me, I got a little lost. So, is Rosada saying that the dough will be have better extensibility and crust color if less poolish is used..or more?   The information about the sugar being depleted during the poolish fermentation was new to me ( probably not really, just forgot) but explains why I need to use sugar to get the browning I want. I see LDM is also good, though my concern would be that for long fermentations it may not be the best choice...based on some tests I've done where the LDM made the dough stickier than I needed. I recall that you, Craig, are using similar amount of poolish to the 43% I use, when making your Mozza clone, correct? and John, it appears your poolish is 47% prefermented flour is that right?


John what's your temperature during the dough cold holding period? I calculate your yeast amount to be about .04% , is that correct. That would make sense for a long hold.


Thanks

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Tinkering with poolish
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2019, 10:39:58 AM »
I don't do much in the way of poolish doughs nowadays, but when I do, I pretty much always preferment with 100% of the water at 100% HR.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Tinkering with poolish
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2019, 11:24:46 AM »
Thanks Craig!

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Offline fazzari

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Re: Tinkering with poolish
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2019, 12:59:05 PM »
John,



 That tells me that you should not have had any problems with your poolish over the 20-hour period, and I would have expected that the poolish would have expanded by quite a bit by the time you incorporated it into the final dough. Was that actually the case? Or have I missed something? Also, I noticed that the finished pizzas in your photos do not have particularly dark crusts. Sometimes with long fermentations of the poolish and if there is a fair amount of yeast there can be a loss of sugars to contribute to crust coloration. These matters and how to correct for a low residual sugar problem are discussed by Rosada in his second article under the section "Secondary effects of the preferment".



Peter

Peter
Sorry for taking so long to get back to you...been busy.  The answer to your first question is that I caught the poolish on the rise, and yes, it had expanded signifcantly.  The reason I made dough after the 18 hour poolish had more to do with the amount of time I had available, and nothing to do with letting it peak.  The answer to your second question is that I don't think I had any issues with coloring.  The picture might have been a bad one, I had to watch the bottom closely because it browned very fast.  Another issue is that I simply used my ovens at work and used the same temps we are currently using for our business...so, I didn't attempt to turn the ovens up to the heat that might have produced a different colored skin.  And thirdly, to me there is a fine line between dark and burned, and I definitely don't like burned.  Those are the reasons I am going to give you.

Peter, again thank you for taking the time to give such a thorough answer.  I appreciate you very much!!!

John

Offline fazzari

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Re: Tinkering with poolish
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2019, 01:06:15 PM »

 I recall that you, Craig, are using similar amount of poolish to the 43% I use, when making your Mozza clone, correct? and John, it appears your poolish is 47% prefermented flour is that right?


John what's your temperature during the dough cold holding period? I calculate your yeast amount to be about .04% , is that correct. That would make sense for a long hold.


Thanks

Hey Bill, I think your math skills match mine...I get the same numbers as you.  My refrigerator at home is 39 degrees.  I started another batch of dough last night....I cut the yeast in half from the first batch....we'll see what happens

John

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tinkering with poolish
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2019, 05:32:52 PM »
Craig's link to the Rosada article was interesting...not surprisingly for me, I got a little lost. So, is Rosada saying that the dough will be have better extensibility and crust color if less poolish is used..or more?   The information about the sugar being depleted during the poolish fermentation was new to me ( probably not really, just forgot) but explains why I need to use sugar to get the browning I want. I see LDM is also good, though my concern would be that for long fermentations it may not be the best choice...based on some tests I've done where the LDM made the dough stickier than I needed. I recall that you, Craig, are using similar amount of poolish to the 43% I use, when making your Mozza clone, correct? and John, it appears your poolish is 47% prefermented flour is that right?


John what's your temperature during the dough cold holding period? I calculate your yeast amount to be about .04% , is that correct. That would make sense for a long hold.

Thanks
Bill,

I believe that the degree of extensibility of the dough will depend on several factors. For example, if there is substantial fermentation of the poolish or final dough, that can create acids that gradually attack the gluten structure. Likewise, there are enzymes in the yeast and flour that also attack the gluten structure and degrade it through proteolytic action. Eventually, the gluten structure is dismantled and the dough is weakened but at the same time is also more extensible. That is why I think it is important to abide by the table that Rosada put in his first article under the Poolish section. That keeps one from just tossing ingredients together without knowing how they will interact and running the risk of failure. I also believe that following the table is a good way to learn how a poolish works. In fact, I once used the Rosada table to help another member, Andre, in Brazil, come up with a dough formulation. I discussed what I did in Reply 36 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13080.msg128439#msg128439. You can read how things turned out at Reply 48 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13080.msg130280#msg130280 and some of the posts that followed. In Andre's case, the total yeast was split between the poolish and the final dough.

Also, you have to be sure that the remaining ingredients in the final dough after incorporation of the poolish do not exhibit the same behavior toward gluten as can occur in the poolish as discussed above. In both instances, the amount of yeast and all of the related temperatures and the durations of fermentation have to be in harmony. This is where experimentation enters the picture. The amount of poolish might also be a factor to consider but if the baker's percents remain constant there may be less harm to the final dough than if you use more yeast or extend the fermentation period substantially or use warmer water or a warmer room temperature, or some combination of these factors. In his second article, Rosada talks about how bread bakers can set aside a section of the bakery for preferments and, if I recall correctly, that section is temperature and humidity controlled. In a home setting, this is less of a concern. As John noted, he did not let his poolish reach the bread point stage.

With respect to the numbers for John's dough formulation, the amount of yeast, at 0.25 grams, is 0.04125% of the total flour (606 grams), but since John put all of the yeast in the poolish, the percent of yeast in the poolish is 0.08771% (0.25/285). That perhaps helps explain why the poolish expanded substantially over the prefermentation period. Your calculation of the amount of the total flour that is used in the poolish is correct (285/606 = 47.0297).

Peter

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Tinkering with poolish
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2019, 07:03:28 PM »
Okay, so then 6, carry the 2.... >:D :-D  My poor little head is shpinning!


Seriously, thank you Peter..I realize I have read that before and my numbers are in the realm of those you note. In practice, for me at least I've found no difference in my finished pizza..though my sample size is miniscule //whetyher adding p[art of the yeast or all of it to the poolish. The exception being when I have taken time the night beofree a very quick doug to make a poolish. I will then use my usual amount, .02 or .04% of the total  formula flour in the poolish and beef up the IDy for the final dough, in that case, use .4 or .5% total IDY to move things along fast.


Much more commonly I make a slow dough like the one I linked earlier in this thread or one I baked today, this one 7 days CF with poolish containing .02% IDY as the only yeast     Reply 129 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=54900.new#new

Offline Irishboy

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Re: Tinkering with poolish
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2019, 12:07:04 AM »
I just actually posted this question to Bill's thread  and then I seen that there was a thread about a poolish.


I don't really make too many Poolish doughs and whenever I have it has only been about 20% of the flours weight and cf


The other day I made one at 50% and all of the idy of the floirs total weight and used a room temperature fermentation the Polish was only going for around 12 hours it looked very healthy and never collapsed I mix the dough together and over the next so many hours the dough was lifeless? Baked product was very thin with no rise, I never once seen any signs of over fermenting.  I've been wondering what went wrong could it be the 50% of the flower weight was too much? or I was thinking maybe because I used all of that i d y
Josh

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Offline foreplease

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Re: Tinkering with poolish
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2019, 12:27:00 AM »
Your 20% of total formula flour is in line with what I see here (and use) of 15%-25%. You are matching that, by weight, with water borrowed or withheld from the final dough in order to have a Poolish with 100% HR, right? What is the total amount of flour, water, salt, yeast, and anything else you use in the final dough?
-Tony

Offline Irishboy

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Re: Tinkering with poolish
« Reply #36 on: June 07, 2019, 12:40:45 AM »



Yes 100% hydro and it was a 50% poolish that went wrong on that at bake it was flat and lifeless


Water: 59 %
Salt: 3 %
Fat: 0.7 %
RT leavening: 20 h
RT : 68įF
Poolish leav.: 12 h
Poolish: 50 %

-------------------------

Poolish doses
Flour:221 g
Water:221 g
IDY: 0.25 g

Main dough doses
Flour:221 g
Water:40 g
Salt:13 g
Fats:3 g
IDY: 0.23 g
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 12:42:48 AM by Irishboy »
Josh

Offline foreplease

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Re: Tinkering with poolish
« Reply #37 on: June 07, 2019, 01:03:10 AM »
I figure that at 0.056% for total yeast as a percent of total flour. Increasing this a bit may be the easiest answer, depending upon how you ferment - time and temp. Itís not a carzy-low unreasonable amount.
 
The yeast must still be good based on how you described activity in the poolish.
Once your poolish and other dough ingredients are mixed together into a final dough, is any of your fermentation time CF?
-Tony

Offline Irishboy

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Re: Tinkering with poolish
« Reply #38 on: June 07, 2019, 01:26:12 AM »
I figure that at 0.056% for total yeast as a percent of total flour. Increasing this a bit may be the easiest answer, depending upon how you ferment - time and temp. Itís not a carzy-low unreasonable amount.
 
The yeast must still be good based on how you described activity in the poolish.
Once your poolish and other dough ingredients are mixed together into a final dough, is any of your fermentation time CF?


I have made it plenty of times with the same amount of idy with no poolish and no problems, not sure if I have to use more yeast when making a poolish to compensate for a Poolish?


I have a pretty controlled wine fridge that I do all my fermentation in always around the 68f range I did not CF


It was pretty strange because the poolish was perfect but once I mixed I seen very little growth in the dough ball and in the dough tube to measure growth the dough was very thin and crispy but it's still tasted amazing just know activity or CO2 production
« Last Edit: June 07, 2019, 01:28:08 AM by Irishboy »
Josh

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