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Offline timber

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AVPN recipe
« on: June 05, 2019, 07:53:01 AM »
I have been trying various recipes for my wood fired for 5 years.  I have used Tony's and Forkish's recipes.  A lot of the recipes are hydrated for home ovens.  I just tried the AVPN recipe-58%,.2% and .11%.  The mix/knead time seemed very long 10+20.  The dough was hard to work.  I am looking for a one day dough-I think.  I am thinking about going to 61% and maybe increasing the yeast.  I am using 00 and sea salt.  Any help would be greatly appreciated

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: AVPN recipe
« Reply #1 on: June 05, 2019, 10:25:02 AM »
timber,

Can you tell us what kind of mixer you are using when following the AVPN recipe?

Peter

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: AVPN recipe
« Reply #2 on: June 05, 2019, 10:42:27 AM »
I'm confused by your dough formula. 58% = dough absorption; 0.2% = (compressed yeast?); 0.11% = ? Salt should be in the 1.75 to 3.25% range and yeast (as compressed yeast) in the 0.175 to 0.2% range.
Are you planning to do your mixing by hand or machine for your same day dough? Do you want to stay close to the AVPN concept or are you just looking for a good same day dough for your wood fired oven?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline timber

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Re: AVPN recipe
« Reply #3 on: June 05, 2019, 06:00:51 PM »
 You are too kind.  I'm new to bakers percentages and now I showed it to all.  As I understand the AVPN recipe water is 58%, salt 3% and yeast .17%.  I am not hung up on AVPN as I am looking for a really good one day recipe.  And I could also use a 2 day.  I am planning on mixing my dough by hand.  My mixer is too small for our batches which are usually 13-17 pizzas and I also believe it's too fast.
Thanks for your help.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: AVPN recipe
« Reply #4 on: June 05, 2019, 10:19:07 PM »
Here is a one day pizza dough formula that we used in our Woodstone wood fired oven.
Flour: 100%
Salt: 2.25%
CY: 0.75%
Water: 58%

Put water (75F) in bowl, reserve a small amount for the salt, add the CY and stir to suspend the yeast in the water. Add 1/2 of the flour and stir in. Allow to rest for 30-minutes, add the salt to the reserved water and add it to the dough along with the remainder of the flour. Mix until free of lumps and allow to ferment for 1-hour, turn out of the bowl onto a floured bench and knead until smooth (about 10-minutes). Scale into desired weight pieces, form into balls, wipe the dough balls lightly with oil and place into individual plastic bread bags, pull the bag snug to the dough ball and twist the open end to form a pony tail, tuck the pony tail under the dough ball as you place it into the fridge, allow to cold ferment for at least 6-hours but can go longer. To use, remove from fridge and allow to set at room temperature for 2 to 3-hours before turning the dough ball(s) out of the bag onto a floured surface, open by hand into skin for immediate use. Once you begin opening the dough balls they will remain good to use for about 2-hours.
To make this int a 2-day dough just reduce the yeast to 0.5%. Manage the dough in the same manner except hold it for 48-hours in the cooler before use. In my opinion, a 2-day dough is MUCH better than a 1-day dough.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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Offline timber

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Re: AVPN recipe
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2019, 06:49:55 AM »
Thank you so much.  I am a builder and the rest of my family were going to be the chefs but..... 
Anyway I am not familiar with compressed yeast (I guess it's also called fresh).  Until I locate it can you tell me how to modify the recipe with instant dry yeast or is that not recommended?  I have read online but am not convinced I've got it nailed.  As a non chef I always thought yeast was yeast!

Offline timber

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Re: AVPN recipe
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2019, 07:38:42 AM »
One more question as I'm working through your recipe.  You say that the CY should be .75% but above you said it should be in the range of .175% to .2%.  Did you mean .175%?

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: AVPN recipe
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2019, 09:59:25 AM »
CY is indeed the same animal as "fresh yeast" I used that as the yeast type since you were referencing the AVPN dough formulation which requires the use of only CY (compressed yeast)/fresh yeast/wet yeast. To use IDY (instant dry yeast) use 40% as much IDY as CY. This figures out to 0.3% IDY to replace 0.75% CY. As for your questions on the yeast levels the amounts you are referencing are for the AVPN type dough formulation, NOT the dough formulation that I provided for you. If you plan to use the supplied dough formulation used the yeast amounts cited in the dough formulation with the conversion to IDY if that's the type of yeast you wish to use.
Please note that there are two different yeast levels cited, one is for a same day dough while the other is for a 2-day (48-hour) dough.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: AVPN recipe
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2019, 10:11:07 AM »
For the record, this is the last AVPN document that I am aware of:

https://www.pizzanapoletana.org/public/pdf/disciplinare%202008%20UK.pdf

As can be seen at the bottom of the above document, the recommended mixer is a fork or spiral mixer. The 10 plus 20 minute mix times apply to those mixers only. One of our members, who is from the Naples area, commented on the mix times in this post:

Reply 116 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1298.msg13378#msg13378

Peter

Offline timber

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Re: AVPN recipe
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2019, 02:17:38 PM »
Thanks to both of you.  I was amazed to find fresh yeast in the bakery department of our local grocery store (I live in a small town).   $4.50 for one pound which seemed like a steal.
 I guess there is no reason to not use CY for all pizza.

I heard back from AVPN yesterday and they said the mixing times went wrong in the translation and should be 5 mix and 15 knead.  But I'm going to go with the Dough Doctor.

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Offline Rolls

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Re: AVPN recipe
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2019, 02:50:11 PM »
Thanks to both of you.  I was amazed to find fresh yeast in the bakery department of our local grocery store (I live in a small town).   $4.50 for one pound which seemed like a steal. I guess there is no reason to not use CY for all pizza.

Keep in mind that fresh yeast is very perishable and doesn't have a very long shelf life.  For the home baker, IDY and ADY are much more convenient and economical, with no compromises in flavour in the final product.


Rolls
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Offline timber

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Re: AVPN recipe
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2019, 05:18:43 PM »
How long does fresh yeast last in the fridge?  I'm in Northern MN in the summer and we go crazy with pizza for the three summer months and then we shut it down.  So if it lasts 3 months I'm good.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: AVPN recipe
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2019, 05:54:15 PM »
No way! If, and that's a BIG "if" the yeast is fresh and hasn't been temperature abused in any way, expect something more like 3-weeks shelf life. With ADY you will get 6 to 12-months and with IDY up to 12-months, assuming proper handling.
Where abouts in Northern MN? Close to Park Rapids or D.L.?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Rolls

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Re: AVPN recipe
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2019, 06:07:42 PM »
How long does fresh yeast last in the fridge?  I'm in Northern MN in the summer and we go crazy with pizza for the three summer months and then we shut it down.  So if it lasts 3 months I'm good.

The package of fresh yeast should be stamped with a "use by " date.  Once it's opened, it begins to deteriorate quickly and you should probably use it within a month, and that's being very generous.  It needs to be maintained at constant fridge temps and should be wrapped properly according to the manufacturer's instructions.  For more consistent results, dry yeast of some sort is the way to go, IMO.

Here's a good piece by the Dough Doctor from Pizza Today: https://www.pizzatoday.com/departments/in-the-kitchen/yeast-performance/



Rolls   
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Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: AVPN recipe
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2019, 06:51:20 PM »
I have to agree... here at work, we've settled on IDY... we've tried it all.... ADY, sourdough and CY. IDY is THE most consistent yeast we've tried. We use SAF-instant.

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Offline timber

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Re: AVPN recipe
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2019, 09:48:13 PM »
3 weeks!  I better get cooking if I'm going to use a pound.  It's fresh because it came in something like 5 one pound packages and they sold me one of those.  Is there an easy way to test to see if it's still good?
I'm in Grand Rapids-1.5 hours east of Park Rapids.  Detroit Lakes has some prairie and ag and we're basically north woods.  I'm old and FL suits my clothes better in the winter.
Thanks to all.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: AVPN recipe
« Reply #16 on: June 07, 2019, 12:35:45 AM »
Not really. you're kinda at the mercy of your supplier unless you can see a manufactured/packaged date on the package. If there is no packaging well????. Old time bakers used to take an egg size piece of dough immediately after mixing and form it into a ball then toss it into a bucket of warm water, if it floats in a few minutes the yeast is still alive but quality still unknown. Outside of laboratory instrumentation, that's about the best you can hope for. By the way, color and aroma are not good indicators of quality either. The one thing that does indicate sub-par quality in C.Y. is a slimy appearance and feel to the C.Y. wet and/or sticky are OK but not slimy.
My son has a place on Boot Lake, about 20-miles east of Park Rapids.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline timber

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Re: AVPN recipe
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2019, 06:33:48 AM »
I'm on Pokegama Lake just south of GR.  If you get up this way I'll let you cook me a pizza.

Offline timber

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Re: AVPN recipe
« Reply #18 on: June 07, 2019, 11:52:26 AM »
Two more questions.  Water at 75 degrees for CY.  Does that increase for IDY?

Also is there a way to tweak this so no refrigeration is required?  We have a proofing box that is handy for large gatherings and won't fit in the fridge.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: AVPN recipe
« Reply #19 on: June 07, 2019, 02:37:01 PM »
If you are asking if you can suspend C.Y. in 75F water, the answer is yes. The temperature of the dough water is used to control the finished/mixed dough temperature.
Can you adjust the dough formulation so no refrigeration is required, yes you can. I'd start by adjusting the C.Y. level to about 0.15%, target a finished dough temperature of 80F (about 70F water temperature), scale and ball immediately after mixing and allow to ferment at ambient until the dough can easily be opened into skins. I can't say how long this will take as the time will vary with the strength of the flour as well as the ambient temperature. Time to roll up the sleeves and begin experimenting.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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