adding diastatic malt powder to my flour to match all trumps malted

[DreamingOfPizza]

Not sure if this is something you can answer for me but was just wondering,
How much 60 Lintner diastatic malt powder should I add to my flour to match it to whatever GM all trumps malted flour uses?
I have Hoosier Hill farms DMP which is 60 L.

Thanks!

[The Dough Doctor]

That's an easy one to answer, use 0.083% based on the total flour weight.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[Jersey Pie Boy]

This one has me thinking , Tom.. so is this amount not determined by and dependent on original flour used?

[The Dough Doctor]

That's the amount you would add to an non-malted flour to achieve the same malting as used by the flour miller in making malted flour. The exact amount will occasionally be varied by the flour miller depending upon the quality (sprouting damage) of the flour he/she is milling at the moment. The more sprouting damage the less malt or amylase enzyme they will add and the less sprouting damage the more malt/enzyme they will add. High quality flour always has little to no sprouting damage but in some years, especially those where there is significant rainfall during the harvesting period, sprouting damage cannot be avoided so the miller addresses it by adjusting the malt/amylase enzyme amount that is added to the flour at the time of milling.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[Pete-zza]

Bill,

I once asked Tim Huff of General Mills how much malt they add to their flours and reported what he told me at Reply 23 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11549.msg106388;topicseen#msg106388

My guess is that GM uses a diastatic malt that has a degree Lintner over a hundred, so using a 60L product you would need less than what GM uses on a percentage basis.

Tim mentioned a falling number apparatus which, as he noted, is a secondary method for measuring the affect of the added enzymatic activity from the malt. FWIW, the AT flour has a falling number of 200-250:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=50111000

Peter

[DreamingOfPizza]

Perfect! Thank you Tom!

[Jersey Pie Boy]

Thanks Tom, Peter!

[foreplease]

My guess is that GM uses a diastatic malt that has a degree Lintner over a hundred, so using a 60L product you would need less than what GM uses on a percentage basis.

Peter

Peter, this seems backwards to me. If GM uses >100 L to reach its target malt level and, AOTBE, I try to match GM results by using 60 L, wouldn't I need something approaching 2 times as much, depending on how much greater than 100 L GM uses? I thought I understood how diastatic malts of various Lintner strengths should be used to achieve the same end result but now fear I need to go back to square one.

[Pete-zza]

Peter, this seems backwards to me. If GM uses >100 L to reach its target malt level and, AOTBE, I try to match GM results by using 60 L, wouldn't I need something approaching 2 times as much, depending on how much greater than 100 L GM uses? I thought I understood how diastatic malts of various Lintner strengths should be used to achieve the same end result but now fear I need to go back to square one.

Tony,

I was guided by what Tom gave as an answer in light of what I was told by GM and I assumed that the flour in question was unmalted. However, I know that DreamingOfPizza in in Canada and that he did not indicate which type or brand of flour he had in mind in his opening post and whether it was already malted or not. If unmalted, then I would think that more, not less, of the 60L product would be needed, as you said. Maybe Tom can straighten things out.

I might also note that Prof. Raymond Calvel, in his seminal work The Taste of Bread, was very fond of using diastatic malt with his French flours, at a rate of 0.20-0.30% of the flour weight. Also, Briess, a producer if diastatic malt, give a range of 0.5-1% for pizza crusts in the table at page 4 at http://www.briess.com/food/Assets/pdf/releases/Briess_MakeItAMaltArticle_July2015.pdf.

Peter

[foreplease]

Thanks Peter.

[The Dough Doctor]

Foreplease;
There is no way of telling just how much malt has been added to the flour, even the Falling Number won't help since it only provides an indication of amount of total diastatic activity (natural in the flour + added malt), not just the malt that is added by the flour miller. If you have an unmalted flour made from good, sound wheat, the addition of 0.25% of a 20L diastatic malt powder should provide the flour with a FN value something under 300 (indicating a normally malted flour). The actual amount of malt added by the miller is totally immaterial and unless you have access to a FN instrument the best you can hope for is to get close to a normally malted flour. We determined the use level of 0.25% 20L diastatic malt powder using the Amylograph instrument (prior to the invention of the Falling Number which is much faster).If you want to replicate the exact malting of a flour you first need to get a FN value of the flour, then add whatever amount of diastatic malt or amylase enzyme is needed to give the flour a FN value in the 200 to 250-second range.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[foreplease]

Foreplease;
There is no way of telling just how much malt has been added to the flour, even the Falling Number won't help since it only provides an indication of amount of total diastatic activity (natural in the flour + added malt), not just the malt that is added by the flour miller. If you have an unmalted flour made from good, sound wheat, the addition of 0.25% of a 20L diastatic malt powder should provide the flour with a FN value something under 300 (indicating a normally malted flour). The actual amount of malt added by the miller is totally immaterial and unless you have access to a FN instrument the best you can hope for is to get close to a normally malted flour. We determined the use level of 0.25% 20L diastatic malt powder using the Amylograph instrument (prior to the invention of the Falling Number which is much faster).If you want to replicate the exact malting of a flour you first need to get a FN value of the flour, then add whatever amount of diastatic malt or amylase enzyme is needed to give the flour a FN value in the 200 to 250-second range.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Thanks for the detailed explanation, Dough Doctor. I know that I don't know what I don't know, which is why I used AOTBE in my reply to Peter. Based on your first reply above, where 0.083% is the amount of 60 L required to 'match' GM All Trumps malted flour would it not then take 0.249% of 20 L to do the same thing? That is what I was questioning Peter about. If it does take less 20 L I am truly lost.

[The Dough Doctor]

Like I said, we used 0.25% 20L malt powder to replicate typical malting done by the flour miller, 0.249 is close enough, I'm not going to argue over 0.001%
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[foreplease]

I got so wrapped up in finding and remembering the 0.083 number from reply 2 I overlooked that you gave the answer twice for 20 L in your longer post. I was merely surprised at Peter's assertion that it would take less 20 L to do the work of a given amount of 60 L. That really was my confusion and only question. Thanks for your patience.


Everyone here appreciates your work and help. If I am ever looking for an argument with you it will be on some topic I know something about. It's a short list.