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Author Topic: Found NY style Pizza in Vegas. But, how to make dough without NYC water/flour?  (Read 786 times)

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Offline minertom

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Hi, my cousin runs a pizza parlor in NYC and he let me know his recipes. However, when I came back home I realized that my California water was a key ingredient.  Also, I spoke with the head of distribution at Pillsbury and they said that they are not allowed to sell Brominated flour west of the Rockies.

Just recently I was in Las Vegas and found Siroccos Pizza at the NY NY casino. It tasted great. But, has anyone tasted Las Vegas water? It is awful. So, my question is, without the proper water and without the proper flour, how can one make a thin crust NYC style Pizza dough?

Thank You
Tom

Offline Rolls

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"Some people like to say that the only way,
For New York pizza to be any good:
All Trumps Bromated and water from the ol' neighbourhood,
But there's really no knead to take a Greyhound on the Hudson River line,
Whenever you're in a New York :pizza: state of mind."


Rolls
(with apologies to the Piano Man)
Getting old, memory is the second thing to go......Can't remember the first.

Offline jsaras

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Hi, my cousin runs a pizza parlor in NYC and he let me know his recipes. However, when I came back home I realized that my California water was a key ingredient.  Also, I spoke with the head of distribution at Pillsbury and they said that they are not allowed to sell Brominated flour west of the Rockies.

Just recently I was in Las Vegas and found Siroccos Pizza at the NY NY casino. It tasted great. But, has anyone tasted Las Vegas water? It is awful. So, my question is, without the proper water and without the proper flour, how can one make a thin crust NYC style Pizza dough?

Thank You
Tom

There’s no magic NY water for pizza.  That myth has been firmly debunked.  If it tastes good it’ll do fine for pizza.
Things have never been more like today than they are right now.

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
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While on the island of St. Thomas I came across a pizzeria called Pizza Amore they make a great N.Y. style pizza. Water source: Since the island has no fresh water all of their potable water is processed from rain water (collected locally of course). The flour being used was General Mills All Trumps (non-bromated).
I've written articles on the topic and I'm on record as saying that there is nothing special about New York City water when it comes to making a N.Y. style pizza. There is nothing magical about All Trumps flour either (bromated or non-bromated), as just about any quality high protein (13.8 or 14.2%) wheat flour will work just fine.
This is not to say that water doesn't affect the quality of a pizza dough and resulting crust (indirectly) it can and does, just read up on discussions on hard and soft water to learn more. Sulfur water is also deemed to be potable we will want to exclude that but just about anything else will work fine.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Online waltertore

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We live at 5,000 ft, in the Sierra Mts., have often single digit humidity, get our drinking water from Lake Tahoe, can't get bromated flour, and it is a piece of cake to make good pizza.  I believe the NY water thing came about to try and put it above metro NYC/NJ pizza.  If you talk to an old time pizza maker in NYC and ask them questions about the process you will get everything but the truth and if you push it too far could get hurt.  We never asked any questions when in pizzerias about the procesess.  You either liked it and came back or went somewhere else.  Everything was closely guarded and family run so everyone knew what to say whenever, which rarely every happened, asked about the process.  Here are what our pies look like that are made here in Reno, NV, at Smiling With Hope Pizza.  Walter
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 01:20:22 AM by waltertore »
SMILING WITH HOPE PIZZA MISSION STATEMENT
TO CREATE HOPE AND MEANING IN THE LIVES OF PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
http://www.smilingwithhopepizza.com/

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Offline minertom

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While on the island of St. Thomas I came across a pizzeria called Pizza Amore they make a great N.Y. style pizza. Water source: Since the island has no fresh water all of their potable water is processed from rain water (collected locally of course). The flour being used was General Mills All Trumps (non-bromated).
I've written articles on the topic and I'm on record as saying that there is nothing special about New York City water when it comes to making a N.Y. style pizza. There is nothing magical about All Trumps flour either (bromated or non-bromated), as just about any quality high protein (13.8 or 14.2%) wheat flour will work just fine.
This is not to say that water doesn't affect the quality of a pizza dough and resulting crust (indirectly) it can and does, just read up on discussions on hard and soft water to learn more. Sulfur water is also deemed to be potable we will want to exclude that but just about anything else will work fine.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Wow, thank you dough Doctor!! I was always led to believe that the water and the brominated flour made a lot of difference.  I am going to look through your posts, if I can find them, and attempt to create something that tastes authentic. FWI, about a couple of years ago, I attempted to do just that and I had some EPIC kitchen fails. I hope to do better this time.

Thanks Again
Tom

Offline minertom

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We live at 5,000 ft, in the Sierra Mts., have often single digit humidity, get our drinking water from Lake Tahoe, can't get bromated flour, and it is a piece of cake to make good pizza.  I believe the NY water thing came about to try and put it above metro NYC/NJ pizza.  If you talk to an old time pizza maker in NYC and ask them questions about the process you will get everything but the truth and if you push it too far could get hurt.  We never asked any questions when in pizzerias about the procesess.  You either liked it and came back or went somewhere else.  Everything was closely guarded and family run so everyone knew what to say whenever, which rarely every happened, asked about the process.  Here are what our pies look like that are made here in Reno, NV, at Smiling With Hope Pizza.  Walter

Hi Walter, thank you for the reply.  Since I live in Auburn, Californa, I will have to travel to Reno one of these days to see what your pies are like.  I don't want to "get hurt" but do you have a dough recipe for New York style that you would part with? I have the sauce recipes from my cousins pizza parlor in NYC, so I think that I am just deficient in dough making. FYI, a couple of years ago when I attempted to make authentic NYC pizza, I had some really bad kitchen fails. Almost called the fire dept once.

Thank you for the encouragement.

Tom

Online waltertore

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Hi Walter, thank you for the reply.  Since I live in Auburn, Californa, I will have to travel to Reno one of these days to see what your pies are like.  I don't want to "get hurt" but do you have a dough recipe for New York style that you would part with? I have the sauce recipes from my cousins pizza parlor in NYC, so I think that I am just deficient in dough making. FYI, a couple of years ago when I attempted to make authentic NYC pizza, I had some really bad kitchen fails. Almost called the fire dept once.

Thank you for the encouragement.

Tom

Tom:  You can make great pizza in Auburn.  The problem most people have that want to open a shop  is they don't have enough depth/experience with working with dough to know how to create a unique product and in general have little to no knowledge/experience with the entire spectrum of running a successful pizzeria.  You can't make world class pizzas overnight.  Just look at how many bad to terrible pizzerias are out there and how few great ones exist.  I have been around pizza on and off all my life (62 years) and still learn.  The thing is when I have a problem with a part of the process I can figure it out and fix it.   I also make all the pies.  Once you turn it over to others they need to be able to do it just like you do or your customers will soon tire of inconsistency.  I do sell my recipes and processes but they are not cheap.   These are things I have developed over decades.  people email me all the time and want all my info for free.  If life was free I would love to give it all away :)   If you want a cheap and solid intro to pizza work in a shop that makes great pizza.   Working in an average shop will train you to do the same.  People will pay a high price for a great pizza and business will be great.  You are welcome to a visit but I can't share info on how I do things.  We have people originally from NYC/NJ/PA/CT that come regularly from SACTO.   One could make a killing there with  a great NY pie.  Walter
SMILING WITH HOPE PIZZA MISSION STATEMENT
TO CREATE HOPE AND MEANING IN THE LIVES OF PEOPLE WITH DISABILITIES
http://www.smilingwithhopepizza.com/

Offline QwertyJuan

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Tom:  You can make great pizza in Auburn.  The problem most people have that want to open a shop  is they don't have enough depth/experience with working with dough to know how to create a unique product and in general have little to no knowledge/experience with the entire spectrum of running a successful pizzeria.  You can't make world class pizzas overnight.  Just look at how many bad to terrible pizzerias are out there and how few great ones exist.  I have been around pizza on and off all my life (62 years) and still learn.  The thing is when I have a problem with a part of the process I can figure it out and fix it.   I also make all the pies.  Once you turn it over to others they need to be able to do it just like you do or your customers will soon tire of inconsistency.  I do sell my recipes and processes but they are not cheap.   These are things I have developed over decades.  people email me all the time and want all my info for free.  If life was free I would love to give it all away :)   If you want a cheap and solid intro to pizza work in a shop that makes great pizza.   Working in an average shop will train you to do the same.  People will pay a high price for a great pizza and business will be great.  You are welcome to a visit but I can't share info on how I do things.  We have people originally from NYC/NJ/PA/CT that come regularly from SACTO.   One could make a killing there with  a great NY pie.  Walter

I "think" you may be over-reacting to his request... I'm not entirely sure he's wanting to open up a pizza parlour... I'm thinking he just wants to make a decent pizza at home. I could be wrong though??  ???

Offline Carmine Abramo

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Hi, my cousin runs a pizza parlor in NYC and he let me know his recipes. However, when I came back home I realized that my California water was a key ingredient.  Also, I spoke with the head of distribution at Pillsbury and they said that they are not allowed to sell Brominated flour west of the Rockies.

Just recently I was in Las Vegas and found Siroccos Pizza at the NY NY casino. It tasted great. But, has anyone tasted Las Vegas water? It is awful. So, my question is, without the proper water and without the proper flour, how can one make a thin crust NYC style Pizza dough?

Thank You
Tom

I'm in Las Vegas.  Pretty bad pizza here.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2019, 09:51:02 PM by Carmine Abramo »

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Offline Carmine Abramo

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Hi, my cousin runs a pizza parlor in NYC and he let me know his recipes. However, when I came back home I realized that my California water was a key ingredient.  Also, I spoke with the head of distribution at Pillsbury and they said that they are not allowed to sell Brominated flour west of the Rockies.

Just recently I was in Las Vegas and found Siroccos Pizza at the NY NY casino. It tasted great. But, has anyone tasted Las Vegas water? It is awful. So, my question is, without the proper water and without the proper flour, how can one make a thin crust NYC style Pizza dough?

Thank You
Tom

New Yorkers use high gluten All Trumps because NY water is soft which can lead to "weaker" dough given the same recipe.  Figure out what kind of water you have and use a less gluten flour if you have harder water.  Don't know what CA water is like but I would guess it's harder and why All Trumps isn't popular over there.

I believe General Mills sells a non bromated version of All Trumps and is sold in California.


Offline Pazzo

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New Yorkers use high gluten All Trumps because NY water is soft which can lead to "weaker" dough given the same recipe.  Figure out what kind of water you have and use a less gluten flour if you have harder water.  Don't know what CA water is like but I would guess it's harder and why All Trumps isn't popular over there.

I believe General Mills sells a non bromated version of All Trumps and is sold in California.

I know the "it's because of the water" comment about NY baked goods has been debunked many times over but that is a good point about the softness of the water being countered by the type of flour. I'm sure this is common knowledge to all you NY pizza makers. I'm a fan of eating NY pizza but it's not my area of focus when it comes to pizza making.
"I would never win an award for not loving pizza!" -Dwayne Johnson

Offline The Dough Doctor

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N.Y. style pizza is made with the highest protein flour commercially available because it provides the desired finished crust characteristics, namely chew and foldability which allows the slice to be folded for consumption on the run. Soft water is easily addressed by the addition of 0.25% calcium sulfate to the dough, or you can "bite the bullet" and just reduce the dough absorption slightly to compensate for the slightly softer dough resulting from the use of soft water as compared to hard water. This has been discussed here at great length and I've also written a published article on the topic.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Pazzo

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N.Y. style pizza is made with the highest protein flour commercially available because it provides the desired finished crust characteristics, namely chew and foldability which allows the slice to be folded for consumption on the run. Soft water is easily addressed by the addition of 0.25% calcium sulfate to the dough, or you can "bite the bullet" and just reduce the dough absorption slightly to compensate for the slightly softer dough resulting from the use of soft water as compared to hard water. This has been discussed here at great length and I've also written a published article on the topic.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Just out of curiousity, would you add the calcium to the water then proceed as normal or would it go in during another phase of mixing?
"I would never win an award for not loving pizza!" -Dwayne Johnson

Offline The Dough Doctor

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It's just added as you would any other dry ingredient, I've always added it right on top of the flour.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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