A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: bulk retard vs ball retard  (Read 878 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline sallam

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 178
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Egypt
bulk retard vs ball retard
« on: June 28, 2019, 06:08:09 PM »
Greetins

Is there a big difference between retarding pizza dough in bulk then S&F, divide and shape the next day, and between retarding shaped loaves ?

I'm asking because I don't have enough home fridge space, so I thought why not mix then bulk retard, and the next day I S&F , bulk ferment in RT then shape and proof in trays?

What are the differences in terms of taste profile and oven rise ? Why do pizza chains retard balls not bulk ?
I'm a home baker.

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5964
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: bulk retard vs ball retard
« Reply #1 on: June 28, 2019, 06:57:01 PM »
We just recently quite a bit of discussion on this very topic, if you check back a week or two you should be able to find it.
Pizzerias (box chains) use a refrigerated dough ball method of dough management because it allows them to use the dough over a several day period and it provides much better consistency than and of the room temperature/ambient fermented doughs. As a home pizza maker you will most likely be using all of the dough that you make at one time so room temperature/ambient temperature dough management is a viable way to manage the dough, however you will need to modify the dough formula by using less yeast and paying special attention to the finished dough temperature (70 to 75F) failure to do so can end up resulting in over fermented dough. Oven spring will be about the same for both methods of dough management, as for flavor, it's hard to describe as it's pretty subtle, but room temperature/ambient fermentation provides a finished flavor similar to that of white pan bread (U.S. and U.K.) while cold fermentation provides a more complex flavor without the acidity common to crusts made from temperature/ambient temperature managed doughs.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline sallam

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 178
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Egypt
Re: bulk retard vs ball retard
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2019, 06:35:47 AM »
Oven spring will be about the same for both methods of dough management, as for flavor, it's hard to describe as it's pretty subtle, but room temperature/ambient fermentation provides a finished flavor similar to that of white pan bread (U.S. and U.K.) while cold fermentation provides a more complex flavor without the acidity common to crusts made from temperature/ambient temperature managed doughs.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Many thanks Tom for your great tips.
OK.. now if I want to gain the complex flavor of cold fermentation but in bulk, say for 12-16 hours, then shape and continue fermenting/proofing in trays.. my question is: what signs should I look for when I put it in my 34F fridge? right after mixing? wait until its volume is 25%, 50% or 2X high? and if so, should I punch it down first before putting in fridge ?
By the way, I'm using sourdough and raw-milk homemade yogurt whey instead of water, to nourish my kids with protein, for both building up the levain and for the final dough.
I'm a home baker.

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5964
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: bulk retard vs ball retard
« Reply #3 on: June 30, 2019, 10:05:52 AM »
Being a home pizza maker I will "assume" you are working with smaller size doughs, less than 1Kg. in total weight? Please confirm or tell me what your total dough weight is.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline sallam

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 178
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Egypt
Re: bulk retard vs ball retard
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2019, 10:16:06 AM »
Being a home pizza maker I will "assume" you are working with smaller size doughs, less than 1Kg. in total weight? Please confirm or tell me what your total dough weight is.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
I use 1kg flour, and dough totals about 1540g from which I make 2 16" pan pizzas.
Available flour in Egypt is soft, it doesn't absorb much liquids like in the US or Europe.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2019, 10:22:40 AM by sallam »
I'm a home baker.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5964
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: bulk retard vs ball retard
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2019, 03:42:43 PM »
It really doesn't work that way, pick one, cold fermentation or room temperature fermentation and go with it. After the dough has cold fermented it will be significantly less dense making it a better insulator and more resistant to temperature change so it will be just all that much more difficult to manage, even in ball form. Another question is, how does your sourdough starter perform under refrigerated conditions? Some starters go all but dormant at refrigerated temperatures so placing the dough in the fridge would be an exercise in futility as not much will happen. Additionally, my comments on a dough made using refrigerated dough management v/s room temperature dough management was based on the use of yeast, not a sourdough starter. The use of a sourdough starter will essentially wipe out any perception of flavor change as it will dominate the flavor profile.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline sallam

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 178
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Egypt
Re: bulk retard vs ball retard
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2019, 11:43:35 PM »
It really doesn't work that way, pick one, cold fermentation or room temperature fermentation and go with it.
.....
.....
 The use of a sourdough starter will essentially wipe out any perception of flavor change as it will dominate the flavor profile.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Wow..!! so much new info to me.
So as I understand it, there is no need for sourdough to go into the fridge, since its flavor dominates any changes aquired from cold fermentation? I thought acetic acid builds up while in the fridge.. but that applies only to yeast dough?

After the dough has cold fermented it will be significantly less dense making it a better insulator and more resistant to temperature change so it will be just all that much more difficult to manage, even in ball form.

Forgive me, but I couldn't understand that part. Could you help me understand your terms "less dense" ,"better insulator" and "more resistant to temperature change" ?

Another question is, how does your sourdough starter perform under refrigerated conditions? Some starters go all but dormant at refrigerated temperatures so placing the dough in the fridge would be an exercise in futility as not much will happen.
Yes, you're right.. my sourdough keeps growing in the fridge, at least for the first 6 hours or so.

So, you recommend that I forget about the fridge for sourdough and use RT all the way ?
I'm a home baker.

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5964
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: bulk retard vs ball retard
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2019, 10:59:38 AM »
Sallam;
Less dense = lighter in weight for a given volume.
Better insulator = resists temperature change.
Resistant to temperature change = more difficult to change the temperature.

In all probability, room temperature fermentation is going to be the best when using a sourdough starter.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline sallam

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 178
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Egypt
Re: bulk retard vs ball retard
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2019, 04:08:45 PM »
In all probability, room temperature fermentation is going to be the best when using a sourdough starter.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Many thanks Tom for your advice. From now on I'll follow it. I did for today's pizzas, which I started from seed yesterday. Took 30 hours, all in RT. Turned out great!
Thank you so much Tom.
I'm a home baker.

Offline amolapizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 733
  • Location: Luxembourg / Spain
  • If pizza is food for the gods, what are we..
Re: bulk retard vs ball retard
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2019, 06:22:46 AM »
Just curious, what ambient temperature do you have inside?
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5964
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: bulk retard vs ball retard
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2019, 11:36:05 AM »
When we reference "ambient" temperature as it pertains to dough storage we are typically referring to temperatures in the 70 to 85F range. But when asking what is the ambient room temperature? It is what it is.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline sallam

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 178
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Egypt
Re: bulk retard vs ball retard
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2019, 01:47:46 PM »
Summer is hot here, RT between 82-86f
I'm a home baker.

Offline amolapizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 733
  • Location: Luxembourg / Spain
  • If pizza is food for the gods, what are we..
Re: bulk retard vs ball retard
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2019, 05:58:38 PM »
When we reference "ambient" temperature as it pertains to dough storage we are typically referring to temperatures in the 70 to 85F range. But when asking what is the ambient room temperature? It is what it is.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Yes, and you have to live with the consequences sometimes.. :(
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

Offline amolapizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 733
  • Location: Luxembourg / Spain
  • If pizza is food for the gods, what are we..
Re: bulk retard vs ball retard
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2019, 06:42:27 PM »
Summer is hot here, RT between 82-86f

I'm sure it can be done, but personally I wouldn't want to keep pizza dough for a long time at 86F..  My personal experience is that the hotter the dough gets, the harder it gets to make pizza. :)

Maybe try to keep dough temp down a bit, like use ice water to mix it, keep it in a cooler or wooden box to slow down it's warming up process, etc.

I also saw that you said that your flour doesn't like to drink a lot of water.  This to me is a sign that it's weak flour. AFAIK a weak flour doesn't need a long maturation period. If you'd want to do all at AT, you could experiment with 2 hours in bulk, and then 4-7 hours in balls.

Or if you go for the fridge method, take care about the dough temperature.  The warmer the dough gets when you make it, the faster it will ferment (problem is bigger with a big dough, as it takes longer to lose heat).  Most of us don't have fridges that stops fermentation completely and immediately..  Maybe in this scenario try a short time (or none) in bulk at TA (or even put it in the fridge between S/F if you do them), then fridge and finally 4-5 hours in balls.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 06:53:52 PM by amolapizza »
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

Offline sallam

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 178
  • Age: 65
  • Location: Egypt
Re: bulk retard vs ball retard
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2019, 11:04:57 PM »
Or if you go for the fridge method, take care about the dough temperature.  The warmer the dough gets when you make it, the faster it will ferment (problem is bigger with a big dough, as it takes longer to lose heat).  Most of us don't have fridges that stops fermentation completely and immediately..  Maybe in this scenario try a short time (or none) in bulk at TA (or even put it in the fridge between S/F if you do them), then fridge and finally 4-5 hours in balls.

Thanks for your great ideas. I usually do S/F after bulk fermentation, so I'll try cold ferment immediately after mixing for a day or 2, then do S/F and then ball in AT. Do you think this would work?
I'm a home baker.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline amolapizza

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 733
  • Location: Luxembourg / Spain
  • If pizza is food for the gods, what are we..
Re: bulk retard vs ball retard
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2019, 04:21:29 PM »
Thanks for your great ideas. I usually do S/F after bulk fermentation, so I'll try cold ferment immediately after mixing for a day or 2, then do S/F and then ball in AT. Do you think this would work?

I don't have much experience with CF, so for me it's hard to tell.  Just wanted to throw out some thoughts on how to handle hot ambient temperatures.  You could also take the dough out and do S/F and put it back in the fridge..
Jack,

Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti Pelati Bio.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


 

wordpress