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Offline KamSandhu44

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Help me with making dough
« on: July 01, 2019, 03:36:26 AM »
Hi all,

So this weekend I attempted to make some pizza dough for the first time, after reading many posts it seemed easy, but not for me! After cooking my pizza the base was very hard and dense.

The recipe I used is one from Jamie Oliver: -

800g store bought 00 flour
200g semolina
14g IDY
1 tablespoon sugar
4 tablespoons extra virgin olive oil
470ml water
1 teaspoon table salt

I mixed all the dry ingredients in a bowl and then used a KitchenAid to mix the dry ingredients with water. Dough was left covered at room temperature for six hours and then over night in a fridge. Taken out of the fridge two hours before using.

I only have an electric oven to cooking and I use a terracotta tile to cook the pizza on. I crank the temp to max (270c in the dial) and I use top and bottom heat. The tile is placed on a wire rack in the middle of the oven, pre heated for around 45 mins. Pizza is cooked for around 8 mins, there is no browning, the dough is still yellow/ pale (sorry no pics).

I think my first mistake was using 00 flour, on my next attempt I was going to ditch the semolina and use a 50/50 blend of 00 and strong bread flour, or would I be better of using 100% bread flour?

Next issue would be regarding my oven, no option to get a pizza oven. Would I be better of moving my tile to the top of the oven and just using top heat?

Please help, I really want to make this a success for my kids, they enjoy the pizza making.

Thank you,
Kam.

Offline Yael

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Re: Help me with making dough
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2019, 10:56:48 AM »
Hi Kam,

Don't worry it will not be so complicated next time. Your formula doesn't have enough hydration, so first thing, we need to raise it :
Flour 100%
Water 58-60% if it's Italian 00 flour, around 65% if it's like American bread flour
salt 2.5%
Idy 0.3%
Sugar if it's Italian flour 2~4%, bread flour may be malted, check it.
Oil 3%.

Mix everything with cold water if your RT is high. Your dough after mixing should arrive at 23-24°C. If yes, leave the dough in bulk, covered, for 30 min. If more, you can make balls right after mixing. Then put in the fridge overnight. The next day, take the dough out of the fridge 5 to 7H before baking. Your dough will be soft and you'll be able to open into a skin.
You may have to par bake the skin + sauce during a couple of minutes, then add the toppings, then bake again till the cheese seems OK.
Try like this and take pictures!
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline Rolls

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Re: Help me with making dough
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2019, 11:29:09 AM »
Please help, I really want to make this a success for my kids, they enjoy the pizza making.

Kam,

It's certainly possible to make great pizza out of a standard home oven, so long as you understand its limitations and learn to work around them.  A crispy New York style or American style pizza is within your grasp but there are also a bunch of pan style pizzas that turn out very well in a home oven.

The Equipment:  To start, I'd recommend you purchase the following, if you don't already have these: a digital weight scale, a simple probe thermometer, measuring spoons for baking,  an aluminum pizza screen (the largest that can fit in your oven) and a rectangular baking pan (if you're interested in pan pizzas).  All of this is enough to get you started without spending too much money.  Eventually, you might want to invest in a proper baking stone or steel.

The Ingredients:  For flour, I would stick to regular supermarket brands available in your area.  Not all flours are created equal, but an all-purpose flour or bread flour should serve you well.  I would use IDY (instant dry yeast) and some plain salt (I like to use sea salt).  No need for fancy waters from the French Alps. Tap water is just fine.  Any sweetener will do (I use table sugar).  You'll also need a bottle of oil, preferably olive oil, of your choice.

The Formula:  This is based loosely on Tom Lehmann's NY-Style Pizza formula, which is tried and true.
  • Flour 100%
  • Water 62%
  • Salt 2%
  • Sugar 2%
  • Oil 2%
  • IDY 0.375%

The proportions of these ingredients can be modified, within reason, but this is a good starting point.  Learn to use "baker's percents" when calculating your dough ingredients.  If you need help converting the above formula into actual weight quantities, let us know.

The Procedure:  Scale out your ingredients.  Suspend the IDY in a small amount (eg. 30 g) of 95 F water.  Pour all of the formula water (less the 30 g used to suspend the yeast) into a mixing bowl.  The temperature of this water should be adjusted, such that your final dough temperature will measure somewhere in the range of 75-80 F.  If you are mixing by hand, I would use water at about 70 F.  If mixing by machine, you want to keep the water temp lower because of the increased heat caused by friction.  Add the yeast slurry and the sugar to the water, then add about two-thirds of the flour and start mixing.  Add the salt.  Keep working the remaining flour into the dough and once absorbed, add the oil and continue mixing.  Dump the contents onto your work surface and begin kneading.  You'll probably need around 15 - 20 minutes total mixing time to get a smooth, satiny dough.  I like to divide this mixing time in two or three sessions, letting the dough relax for 10 minutes in between sessions.  These rest periods allow the flour to become better hydrated and help facilitate the desired dough consistency.  Take the temperature of the dough mass and keep notes so that you can make adjustments for future bakes.  Portion and weigh your dough pieces and form into balls.  Brush outer surface lightly with oil and place in a plastic food bag or tupperware container.  Do not hermetically seal.  Place dough balls in the fridge and let them be.  If you make 3 dough balls, try making pizzas on 3 consecutive days (after 24, 48, 72 hours) so you can figure out what you like best in terms of taste.

After the dough has cold fermented for X amount of time, remove from the fridge about two hours before you want to bake.  Stretch the skin, using some semolina as bench flour, and place on the aluminum pizza screen.  The screen will help maintain the round shape of the pizza and will help you avoid some of the pitfalls of using a pizza peel.  Once the pizza is dressed, transfer immediately to a hot preheated oven and bake.  You'll have to experiment with different temperature settings and oven rack positions to see what works for you.  Keep your eye on the pizza, not on the clock. It's done when it's done.

Practice, practice, practice.  Your mistakes will often become your greatest teachers and you will learn to intuitively make the necessary adjustments that will lead you to better pizza.

I'm all typed out. Hope this helps.


Rolls     
« Last Edit: July 01, 2019, 01:19:37 PM by Rolls »
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Offline Hanglow

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Re: Help me with making dough
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2019, 11:31:36 AM »
Kam, as you are in the uk I would avoid anything labeled "00" from our supermarkets, they are anything from super high protein flours with added wheat gluten to low protein durum wheat or low protein cake flour . I found this out having bought them all and tried them to varying levels of lack of success  :-D  .

I would do what Yael says, use Allinsons strong white bread flour and add sugar as it is unmalted. So for 1kg of flour it would be something like

1000 g bread flour
600g water
30g oil
30g sugar
25g salt
3g instant yeast

I like Jamie oliver a lot and have made many of his recipes, but a pizza maker he is not, all his recipes use far too much yeast and not enough salt


edit:  Rolls posted that excellent post as I was typing, great advice there too



Offline KamSandhu44

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Re: Help me with making dough
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2019, 03:01:37 PM »
Hi,

Thank you all for your detailed replies. You've restored some faith.

I will try the measurements as suggested in a couple of weeks and report back on how it went.

From what you guys have suggested to what JO has on his site, the measurements are a world apart! No wonder it never really worked.

I was going to order some Caputo Pizzeria Blue to mix with bread flour, is it worth it? Or am I better of sticking to 100% bread flour?

I'm all excited again  :)

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Offline Rolls

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Re: Help me with making dough
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2019, 04:12:45 PM »
Hi,
Thank you all for your detailed replies. You've restored some faith.
I will try the measurements as suggested in a couple of weeks and report back on how it went.
From what you guys have suggested to what JO has on his site, the measurements are a world apart! No wonder it never really worked.
I was going to order some Caputo Pizzeria Blue to mix with bread flour, is it worth it? Or am I better of sticking to 100% bread flour?
I'm all excited again  :)

Caputo Pizzeria Blue is a great flour but it is meant for high temperature applications, most typically for Neapolitan style pizza which is baked in a wood-fired oven.  It's hard to recommend using either an all-purpose flour or a bread flour, as these terms have no standardized definitions within the industry.  For example, the all-purpose flour I use in Canada (5 Roses) has a high protein content compared to many of the US flours that are also marketed as "all-purpose" flour.  Maybe some members from the UK can recommend some brands.  At any rate, once you practice and become familiarized with a given flour, you'll get a better sense of its fermentation tolerances and handling properties.

Looking forward to seeing your updates and I'm excited that you're excited.  This is a very gratifying hobby. :chef:



Rolls
Getting old, memory is the second thing to go......Can't remember the first.

Offline KamSandhu44

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Re: Help me with making dough
« Reply #6 on: July 08, 2019, 01:44:27 AM »
Hi all,

So I wil be attempting another batch of dough this week and wanted to run my measurement by you.

I am going to use this flour https://www.allinsonflour.co.uk/products/very-strong-white

It's 14g protein.

Measurement: -

Flour (100%):    1000.15 g  |  35.28 oz | 2.2 lbs
Water (62%):    620.09 g  |  21.87 oz | 1.37 lbs
IDY (0.375%):    3.75 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Salt (2%):    20 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.58 tsp | 1.19 tbsp
Oil (2%):    20 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.45 tsp | 1.48 tbsp
Sugar (2%):    20 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.02 tsp | 1.67 tbsp
Total (168.375%):   1684 g | 59.4 oz | 3.71 lbs | TF = N/A

I will probably use the KitchenAid to mix the dough, adjusting the water temp to suit.

Do I need to leave the finished dough out at room temp? Or should I just put it straight in the fridge?

Kam.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Help me with making dough
« Reply #7 on: July 08, 2019, 11:01:19 AM »
Note:
In the excellent post by Rolls he recommended a pizza screen in his equipment list, just make sure you season the pizza screen before using it or the screen and pizza will be "as one" after baking. To season the screen just wipe it down with oil and place it into an oven at not over 400F for about 20-minutes, remove it from the oven and repeat the process again. The screen has now been seasoned and is ready for baking. DO NOT wash your screens, instead, just wipe them down with a clean towel, if you get crud on it just allow it to bake off. As you continue to use the screen the seasoning will continue to darken to a black color, this is normal and desirable. Note that once a screen has been properly seasoned it does not need to be oiled for any future use.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline KamSandhu44

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Re: Help me with making dough
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2019, 05:27:47 AM »
Thank you for the info Tom.

I have an unglazed tile which I have been cooking on and am ok using peel.

Would I get better results using pizza steel in my kitchen oven over a tile?

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Help me with making dough
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2019, 11:27:43 AM »
How thick are they?
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Offline KamSandhu44

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Re: Help me with making dough
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2019, 11:39:32 AM »
How thick are they?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

They are 14mm thick.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Help me with making dough
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2019, 02:11:44 PM »
At 14mm I think the steel will give better results than the unglazed tile.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline KamSandhu44

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Re: Help me with making dough
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2019, 02:29:58 PM »
Thanks Tom, pizza screen has been ordered.

I will post up pictures over the weekend.

Offline MadMatt

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Re: Help me with making dough
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2019, 03:14:53 PM »
Waitrose and Sainsburys sell Strong Canadian bread flour  they have a whopping 14.9 and 14.8% protein flour,  I mix it with some cheap bread flour (about 12%)   to get the desired protein content I want.  Never tried branded flours.



https://www.sainsburys.co.uk/shop/gb/groceries/sainsburys-very-strong-canadian-bread-flour--taste-the-difference-1kg


https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/waitrose-canadian-very-strong-white-bread-flour/006224-2744-2745  they often have this  £1.34 on offer  I buy a couple of bags  making it very good value for money  :)


« Last Edit: July 09, 2019, 03:21:15 PM by MadMatt »

Offline KamSandhu44

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Re: Help me with making dough
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2019, 03:18:44 PM »
Waitrose and Sainsburys sell Strong Canadian bread flour  they have 14.9 and 14.8% protein flour,  I mix it with some cheap bread flour (about 12%)   to get the desired protein content I want.  Never tried branded flours.

Is there any benefit in mixing flour's? I was just going to use 100% strong Canadian flour.

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Offline MadMatt

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Re: Help me with making dough
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2019, 04:18:46 PM »
Is there any benefit in mixing flour's? I was just going to use 100% strong Canadian flour.

You could do that  if you want  but  you might prefer lower protein flour I believe higher protein can make it chewier but honestly I don't find it that noticeable.  Never even tried  using it purely on its own. 14.9% sounds very high. 


I use 13.5 to 14% when doing thin NY style just because   everyone else seems to do it for that style.. .. and its easier to stretch it thin without it tearing because it has as more gluten strength to the dough.


There's a calculator out there to mix flours to get show you how much you need to use to get the desired protein content.


I just use this one which is meant for milk but works the same

https://www.dairyscience.info/newCalculators/pearson.asp

fat is just protein content of the flour and i treat the KG as grams like so



Maybe someone can link a better one just for flour




Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Help me with making dough
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2019, 04:47:38 PM »

There is a calculator out there to mix flours to get show you how much you need to use to get the desired protein content.


I believe that Matt is thinking of the calculator to the right at https://www.pizzamaking.com/FoodSim.htm

Peter

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Help me with making dough
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2019, 07:29:03 PM »
To be honest with you, there is absolutely nothing wrong with using a 12%/12%+ protein content flour to make your pizzas. My go to flour has, on average, 12.2% protein content and I use it to make most of my pizzas.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline KamSandhu44

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Re: Help me with making dough
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2019, 01:57:10 AM »
Thanks for the info Tom.

I have a question in regards to proving dough, is it ok to let it rise in a loosely covered plastic bowl in the fridge? Or am I better of using a bag?

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Help me with making dough
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2019, 09:24:10 AM »
Either one works OK, the carbon dioxide generated by the yeast as it ferments will help to provide a protective blanket over the surface of the dough to further prevent drying. However, "loosely" is a pretty subjective term, my definition could be defined as a piece of foil placed over the container with the overlapping edges pulled down but not crimped or fastened to the fermentation vessel/container. In this case you will still need to allow the container to remain uncovered for 2-hours or more before applying the loose fitting lid, if not you will find condensation forming on the underside of the lid.
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