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Author Topic: When did pizza become science experiments and fine dining?  (Read 1350 times)

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Offline Carmine Abramo

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Re: When did pizza become science experiments and fine dining?
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2019, 09:14:38 PM »
Don’t know for sure but I think we bottomed out with pizza in a cup in the late 70s. May have swung too far the other direction now. There are so many kinds of pizza (and all foods), everyone should be able to find a place on the spectrum.


pizza was never an instant food made in a cup with hot water.  wrong analogy sorry. 

Offline Carmine Abramo

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Re: When did pizza become science experiments and fine dining?
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2019, 09:15:54 PM »
1980. With the rise of California style pioneered by Ed LaDou and Alice Waters. Though I’m sure there were others looking to push the boundaries and increase their knowledge.

Interesting, I do remember when California cuisine came into the consciousness of Americans in the 1990's so there must have been an evolution.

Offline Carmine Abramo

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Re: When did pizza become science experiments and fine dining?
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2019, 09:17:24 PM »
Not sure what you mean by "science experiments"??  Baking science has been around for a very long time and has undoubtedly helped advance the quality of pizza-making through the years.  If you're referring to the use of exotic ingredients as toppings, that will always represent a small fraction of the pizza world.  I highly doubt the pizzas with "shaved white truffles and gold leaf accents" will ever supplant the simple cheese pie, if only on the basis of affordability, to say nothing about the universal appeal of simple peasant food.  I don't know of many pizza establishments that I would consider "fine dining" but whatever ones exist are certainly in a very small minority.



Rolls

I've been reading this forum it sure reads like a science experiment.  Yeast charts and all.  I'm sure most pizzamakers in days of yore never picked up a beaker or did a physics calculation.

Offline Carmine Abramo

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Re: When did pizza become science experiments and fine dining?
« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2019, 09:19:03 PM »
Lars,

I tend to agree with you on the roles that Ed LaDou and Alice Waters played in the California style of pizzas, as I so noted at Reply 3 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22400.msg228027#msg228027. I think LaDou's passing in 2007 at such a young age dampened interest in the California pizza style. What a lot of people do not know is that Ed, who was a motivating force at Wolfgang Puck's operation, at one time went to work for the founders of California Pizza Kitchen, Larry Flax and Rick Rosenfield. California Pizza Kitchen was sold to private equity (Golden Gate Capital) sometime in 2011, at which time Flax and Rosenfield were no longer allowed to get back into the pizza business. However, the restaurant under the new owners has tried to add new things to its menu. In 2018, CPK added Cauliflower Pizza Crust to its menu nationwide.

As an aside, LaDou was technically a member of this forum but he only entered one post:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=327.msg2565#msg2565

Peter

So we can all agree that California contributed to all the "pollution"

Offline StateofMind

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Re: When did pizza become science experiments and fine dining?
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2019, 10:15:30 PM »
So we can all agree that California contributed to all the "pollution"

Some call the “pollution” evolution or progression. Many people (myself included) believe we are currently experiencing a pizza renaissance. We have so many pizza makers (amateur and professional) that care to hone their skills, create great pizza, and search for great ingredients. I’ll take that all day over big chains schlepping mediocre (at best) pizza.

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Offline foreplease

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Re: When did pizza become science experiments and fine dining?
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2019, 11:10:43 PM »
pizza was never an instant food made in a cup with hot water.  wrong analogy sorry.
If I was wrong about anything it was my decision to reply to the original post because it may have created the impression that I agree with the premise. Mine wasn’t meant to be an analogy. It appears that you did not click on the link in my post or may just be unfamiliar with that movie and some of the topical things of that period.
-Tony

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: When did pizza become science experiments and fine dining?
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2019, 11:34:41 PM »
State of Mind, yes, that's right! But schlepping? Carrying around, and not in an easy way.  As in:


But Carmine, why are you schlepping around those gripes? Only the old way is good? I'll bet I've got a few  years on you and I'm open to all kinds of testing and experimenting if it  makes  good pizza , or anything for that matter.  And I'm very non-science-y...I only know enough math to make some pizza and bread..it's fun, you meet cool people and eat really well   Grab a yeast chart and make some pizza for us :-D

Offline pizzilla

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Re: When did pizza become science experiments and fine dining?
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2019, 11:54:00 PM »
Hmm, well to my mind, baking has always been a science, the fine dining part, I would credit Alice Waters, Ed LaDou and Wolfgang Puck for putting unusual ingredients and different types of cheese on 'em. My 2 cents ..  ;D
« Last Edit: June 22, 2019, 08:22:29 AM by pizzilla »
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Offline Minolta Rokkor

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Re: When did pizza become science experiments and fine dining?
« Reply #28 on: June 22, 2019, 05:39:52 AM »
Pretty sure Portland does the fine dining scene the best, Portland doesn't take any gimmicky bs. Only the best pizza shops thrive their.

California is the most experimental.
Pizza is about balance, nothing more nothing less

Offline amolapizza

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Re: When did pizza become science experiments and fine dining?
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2019, 07:39:48 AM »
I've been reading this forum it sure reads like a science experiment.  Yeast charts and all.  I'm sure most pizzamakers in days of yore never picked up a beaker or did a physics calculation.

No but they learnt the art from someone already versed in the art..

We're living in a technical world and trying to learn from a forum..
Jack,

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Offline Rolls

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Re: When did pizza become science experiments and fine dining?
« Reply #30 on: June 22, 2019, 09:18:41 AM »
I'm sure most pizzamakers in days of yore never picked up a beaker or did a physics calculation.

Perhaps, but if they ever used an electric or gas oven, thermometers and weight scales, artificial lighting, refrigeration, tap water, commercial yeast etc. etc., then they certainly reaped the fruits of someone else's "science experiments".



Rolls
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Offline PizzAmateur

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Re: When did pizza become science experiments and fine dining?
« Reply #31 on: June 22, 2019, 11:20:02 PM »

Perhaps, but if they ever used an electric or gas oven, thermometers and weight scales, artificial lighting, refrigeration, tap water, commercial yeast etc. etc., then they certainly reaped the fruits of someone else's "science experiments".



Rolls


And, of course, in "days of yore" nobody EVER made a bad pizza!  (chuckle)

Offline CarryOn

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Re: When did pizza become science experiments and fine dining?
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2019, 01:50:15 PM »
I think it's just human nature to explore, explore, explore.

I'm on a guitarist's forum, and if you think science and tinkering are limited to pizza/baking, think again. Changing out bits and pieces, the latest string technology, pick material, all looking to get that elusive "perfect" sound.

For some of us, I think these activities are just an excuse to engage in detailed funnery; if you're a bourbon guy, you've got to try all the bourbons, and you'll swear bourbon from this crystal glass tastes different that from that crystal glass, and there's only one "right" way to store it, and yes, there will be science to back it up.

I get where you're coming from, though. With pizza, I think I'm happiest when my hands are on the dough. Even happier than when I'm eating it, or when someone else is eating it and smiling. Working the dough is calming, a real de-stressor, and I'm certainly not thinking about this yeast or that yeast, hydration, or anything like that, because I'm not really a science guy, and I have only a passing interest in the "why" of something. Details start to bog me down and take the joy of simplicity away. I have enough difficult things in my life, enough complex things.  That's not knocking the science, because we all benefit from that.

When I'm making dough, I don't want to think. I just want to feel.

CO

Offline Grease Wheel

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Re: When did pizza become science experiments and fine dining?
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2019, 03:21:51 PM »
For what it’s worth a small cultural perspective of pizza in the early ‘50s as illustrated in “The Honeymooners Lost Episodes” episode number 4, “Ralph Threatens to Leave,”  which first aired 11/16/51.

Ralph makes mention of “The day I took you out for pizza.” Alice refers to their waiter. Ralph, hyperbole on, cites “400 people in the restaurant.” They left a tip of 35¢.
Like salt? Thank Grease Wheel.

Offline waltertore

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Re: When did pizza become science experiments and fine dining?
« Reply #34 on: July 09, 2019, 04:18:42 PM »
The endless food shows and internet did it IMO.  I grew up going to the same pizzeria as my parents and grandparents.  We could walk and that was the final word on pizza.  You would know of a some in your area but nothing like the vast knowledge people have about all the various pizzerias today. People ask me "do you know such and such pizzerias in NYC/NJ?"  when they come in the shop. I usually say no because there wasn't cable TV or internet and there was no reason to leave the neighborhood because great food was within a walk when I was growing up in the NYC area. I have no interest in all the new stuff going on with pizza but do enjoy the business that comes our way via the technologies of today.  We remain the old school model making basic pies with the same ingredients/toppings I was raised on.   We will die doing it this way.  A great cheese pie is the best pizza on earth IMO.  All the fancy toppings of today you couldn't pay me to eat. I am happy others find joy in that approach.  :-D Walter
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Offline CarryOn

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Re: When did pizza become science experiments and fine dining?
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2019, 08:39:56 AM »
Quote
A great cheese pie is the best pizza on earth IMO.  All the fancy toppings of today you couldn't pay me to eat. I am happy others find joy in that approach.

That's about how I feel. I'll try to shake things up at home because my wife isn't really a pizza person, where I could eat it just about every day.

Without sounding like I have a stick up my butt, I'll gladly make her a ham and pineapple thingy, or bacon and egg thingy, or the pulled pork one I did the other day, and the steak one before that, but I just don't call them pizzas. They're flatbreads topped with various things.

All pizzas are flatbreads, but not all flatbreads are pizzas.

When she's out of town and I have a week or 10 days on my own, the dough is flying, and it's plain cheese one night, pepperoni another night, sausage the next night, and if I'm feeling really wild, pepperoni *and* sausage!  That's pizza to me.

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