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Online invertedisdead

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Re: Could use some help with improvement
« Reply #40 on: April 05, 2017, 10:06:11 PM »
My tasters all want a crunchy pizza too. I try and explain NY style isn't really crunchy, more crisp perhaps, but it falls on deaf ears.

You could consider reducing or eliminating the honey and/or going up one oven rack position to slow down/even out the browning.

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Could use some help with improvement
« Reply #41 on: April 06, 2017, 06:58:16 AM »
You could try reheating slices for him. Let them cool to room temp then go back onto the hot stone.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Could use some help with improvement
« Reply #42 on: April 06, 2017, 08:33:08 AM »
I slightly revised my dough procedure as follows:

100% all trumps
59% water
2% EVOO
2% honey
2% salt
0.45% yeast

Jhauke,

You might try eliminating the honey and oil and increase the hydration to about 63%. Sweeteners like honey--but also sugar--and oil can have a tenderizing effect on the finished crust. At a total of 4%, that might not add a lot of tenderness but a simple experiment leaving them out of the formulation should tell you one way or the other. You might also lower the bake temperature and bake the pizza longer. With the higher hydration, hopefully you will get a nice volume in the skin and the skin should act as an insulator and allow more of the heat to be concentrated on the bottom of the pizza, making it a bit more cracker like. Maybe that will please your father more.

Peter

Offline Jhucke

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Could use some help with improvement
« Reply #43 on: April 06, 2017, 09:52:47 AM »
Jhauke,

You might try eliminating the honey and oil and increase the hydration to about 63%. Sweeteners like honey--but also sugar--and oil can have a tenderizing effect on the finished crust. At a total of 4%, that might not add a lot of tenderness but a simple experiment leaving them out of the formulation should tell you one way or the other. You might also lower the bake temperature and bake the pizza longer. With the higher hydration, hopefully you will get a nice volume in the skin and the skin should act as an insulator and allow more of the heat to be concentrated on the bottom of the pizza, making it a bit more cracker like. Maybe that will please your father more.

Peter

Was I wrong to assume that a lower hydration was the most effective step to achieving a crunchier crust?  Asking because that was the logic I based such a low hydration percentage on as I have been going down (started at 63% if I remember correctly) and I have been experiencing the results I wanted, but only to see the bottom cook a little too fast now as well. If I go back up to the high percentage of water I'm really going to have to tune in my blackstone to ensure I don't go back to the soupy mess in the middle of my pie that I've been trying to avoid.  When I switched to a lower temperature when I was still running higher hydration, I first had a 7 minute cook time but the very center was still close to raw. You can see this on post #13.  Reducing that hydration and going for around a 5:30 bake time, the center was cooked how it should be. What are your thoughts on this?  Or rather are you simply suggesting that you want me to compensate the lack of oil and sugar for 4% more hydration? Thank you for the input, I will try all of these ideas for the next dough experiment.

I'm also thinking about doing a genuine Lehman's style dough for the next series as I have been reading and taking notes on your sticky thread.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2017, 10:12:30 AM by Jhucke »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Could use some help with improvement
« Reply #44 on: April 06, 2017, 01:46:13 PM »
Was I wrong to assume that a lower hydration was the most effective step to achieving a crunchier crust?  Asking because that was the logic I based such a low hydration percentage on as I have been going down (started at 63% if I remember correctly) and I have been experiencing the results I wanted, but only to see the bottom cook a little too fast now as well. If I go back up to the high percentage of water I'm really going to have to tune in my blackstone to ensure I don't go back to the soupy mess in the middle of my pie that I've been trying to avoid.  When I switched to a lower temperature when I was still running higher hydration, I first had a 7 minute cook time but the very center was still close to raw. You can see this on post #13.  Reducing that hydration and going for around a 5:30 bake time, the center was cooked how it should be. What are your thoughts on this?  Or rather are you simply suggesting that you want me to compensate the lack of oil and sugar for 4% more hydration? Thank you for the input, I will try all of these ideas for the next dough experiment.

I'm also thinking about doing a genuine Lehman's style dough for the next series as I have been reading and taking notes on your sticky thread.
Jhucke,

When I composed my reply I had forgotten that you used your BS oven. I was thinking of a pizza being baked on a stone in your home oven. However, even though I do not have a BS, I think the same principles apply. And the reason I suggested a hydration of 63% is because that is the rated absorption of the AT flour. At that value, I would expect to see a good oven spring with a nicely browned bottom crust. At a lower hydration value, I believe that you might end up with a less airy, somewhat more chewy crumb. However, other factors, such as thickness factor, oven temperature, and the number and weights of cheese, sauce and toppings, can also affect the character and texture of the finished crust. Because you started the thread on the NY style board, I assumed that you were tying to make that style. However, I could not find the size of pizza you were making. But if you used a 300-gram dough ball, and assuming a 12" size, that would translate into a thickness factor of 0.09357. That falls into the range of values that some people use for the NY style, even by some professionals, but most of our members tend to use a lower value, with about 0.085 being a popular value.

In your case, if a more crispy crust is what you are looking for, hopefully using the AT flour with a 63% hydration will provide the desired results. You can read more about the physics involved at Reply 980 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3944.msg70562.html#msg70562. You may still have to play around with bake temperatures and times to fine tune the results.

Peter

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Offline Jhucke

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Re: Could use some help with improvement
« Reply #45 on: April 06, 2017, 08:46:20 PM »
Jhucke,

When I composed my reply I had forgotten that you used your BS oven. I was thinking of a pizza being baked on a stone in your home oven. However, even though I do not have a BS, I think the same principles apply. And the reason I suggested a hydration of 63% is because that is the rated absorption of the AT flour. At that value, I would expect to see a good oven spring with a nicely browned bottom crust. At a lower hydration value, I believe that you might end up with a less airy, somewhat more chewy crumb. However, other factors, such as thickness factor, oven temperature, and the number and weights of cheese, sauce and toppings, can also affect the character and texture of the finished crust. Because you started the thread on the NY style board, I assumed that you were tying to make that style. However, I could not find the size of pizza you were making. But if you used a 300-gram dough ball, and assuming a 12" size, that would translate into a thickness factor of 0.09357. That falls into the range of values that some people use for the NY style, even by some professionals, but most of our members tend to use a lower value, with about 0.085 being a popular value.

In your case, if a more crispy crust is what you are looking for, hopefully using the AT flour with a 63% hydration will provide the desired results. You can read more about the physics involved at Reply 980 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3944.msg70562.html#msg70562. You may still have to play around with bake temperatures and times to fine tune the results.

Peter

Yes I am definitely trying to create a New York style pizza, I was simply wondering about how a true NYS pizza is supposed to be because my critic just wants it to be crunchier.  I do believe that what I am on track with is getting closer to an acceptable pie by my standards as they are very close to what I'm expecting them to be. I just need to be more consistent at this point with how my pies turn out.  I think a lot of that is going to have to be with the way I turn out my pies so that I'm not getting so many random thick spots towards the crust.  My next strategy is to try and maintain a thicker center at the beginning of my stretch so I can ensure a consistent and thin base all the way to the rim.

Anyway, I will try and make the deviation from the NYS to make it crunchier for my dad here or there, but just for the record, I'm after New york style. I will try your recommendation on hydration and go from there.. Although I do believe I am going to try a true Tom Lehman's make next.

Offline Josh123

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Re: Could use some help with improvement
« Reply #46 on: April 06, 2017, 10:03:32 PM »
It's okay, I guess I read it too quickly to actually realize the proper context. 


Anyway, I made the rest of my dough yesterday night and I experienced a bit of an anomaly regarding one of the dough balls.  I usually put my balled dough inside larger proofing containers in the fridge, but I did not have enough room and one had to go inside of a smaller round container.  This one rose twice as much as the other ones and actually blew the top off at one point in the fridge, I have no idea why.  In the oven, the center of the dough actually rose to about as high as the rim while it cooked, I really have no explanation for this other than I don't think I'm going to put the dough inside individual sized containers anymore.  ???

Also an above member mentioned to not cook the sauce at all.. Well I tried that yesterday and my pizza was quite watery in the center (dough was cooked, just water in the center).  Was "don't cook the tomatoes" a tentative statement, I mean I used Cento San Marzonos and they are practically water when I broke them up with my hands.  This doesn't seem right.  Anyone else want to chime in on what they do for sauce? Not only was mine too watery, but it really lacked that NY style punch I was looking for.  It tasted too much like the Neopolitan style sauce I was using which is nothing more than san marzonos and some salt. Maybe sugar.  The flavor was okay, but just not quite right.

I really focused on keeping the edge less poofy and it's definitely getting better. I will post more pictures the next round of dough.

Mix a paste in, use more oregano, black pepper, and put some romano/parmigiano in the sauce. Will have more of the NY zip you're looking for.

Offline Josh123

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Re: Could use some help with improvement
« Reply #47 on: April 06, 2017, 10:07:00 PM »
My tasters all want a crunchy pizza too. I try and explain NY style isn't really crunchy, more crisp perhaps, but it falls on deaf ears.

You could consider reducing or eliminating the honey and/or going up one oven rack position to slow down/even out the browning.

Yep. NY style has a distinct leathery chew with some crisp towards the rim. The only crunch that would be within NYS would be the ends of the rims if they were a bit charred.

Online invertedisdead

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Re: Could use some help with improvement
« Reply #48 on: April 06, 2017, 10:12:38 PM »
Yep. NY style has a distinct leathery chew with some crisp towards the rim. The only crunch that would be within NYS would be the ends of the rims if they were a bit charred.

Is NY style bad cold? I always liked cold pizza out of the fridge but I noticed when I reduce oil to make my pies more chewy I'm of course removing some of that tenderizing effect; and the slices end up kind of tough once they get cold. If you reheat it they come back alive, it's just not very good cold.

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Re: Could use some help with improvement
« Reply #49 on: April 06, 2017, 11:05:43 PM »
Is NY style bad cold? I always liked cold pizza out of the fridge but I noticed when I reduce oil to make my pies more chewy I'm of course removing some of that tenderizing effect; and the slices end up kind of tough once they get cold. If you reheat it they come back alive, it's just not very good cold.

I'm not a fan of the texture on cold ny style.  One thing I did notice, and the OP may find of interest.  The nice eggshell crisp you get from a fazzari reball method seems to hold up well in the fridge.  I actually prefer that with a hotter bake to the longer bake more relaxed dough  crispness.  It also seems like the crumb is more tender.

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Offline Josh123

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Re: Could use some help with improvement
« Reply #50 on: April 07, 2017, 02:18:41 PM »
I think NY style is bad cold. To me, it's the best pizza, but I think it needs to be consumed within 15 to 20 mins out of the oven for optimal texture/flavor.

Offline bregent

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Re: Could use some help with improvement
« Reply #51 on: April 07, 2017, 03:10:32 PM »
>I keep meaning to post a picture of a "normal" pie with just pepperoni or something but
>I'm always trying to think of something different to throw on a pizza that the fam will enjoy.

I hear ya. It's tough to get folks to appreciate that a really good NY pie does not need any toppings. Growing up in NY, it was extremely rare if I ordered a pie/slice with topping. My wife and kids (all Californians) are starting to come around and I usually bake one plain pie and another with 1-2 toppings max - usually pepperoni and mushroom.

Folks outside of NY have a different view of what pizza is. A few years ago some friends invited me out for pizza at a place in the East Bay that, IMO, does a pretty good NY pie.  They went there weekly and the SOP was to go around the table and everyone picks a topping. When it got to me, I said ' nothing for me', so then the guy next to me said, 'Ok I'll pick one for you' :)
I explained that, it's not that I can't decide which of the 50 something available toppings to choose, I didn't want any more going on the pie, as they already picked 3 or 4. At that point I got some really puzzled looks, like, why not pile on as much as you can? In California, and much of the country I assume, pizza is just a substrate on which to build a salad.

We went back the next week and one guy suggested we order a large pie with toppings and a medium plain cheese to appease me. When the plain came, all but one of them tried it. The lone holdout look at it and said it was too weird for him. The others tried it, saying it was interesting, then went back to eating there bacon, feta, onion, sausage, chicken, pesto and bell pepper pizza.
Bob

Offline Jhucke

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Re: Could use some help with improvement
« Reply #52 on: April 07, 2017, 03:20:23 PM »
>I keep meaning to post a picture of a "normal" pie with just pepperoni or something but
>I'm always trying to think of something different to throw on a pizza that the fam will enjoy.

I hear ya. It's tough to get folks to appreciate that a really good NY pie does not need any toppings. Growing up in NY, it was extremely rare if I ordered a pie/slice with topping. My wife and kids (all Californians) are starting to come around and I usually bake one plain pie and another with 1-2 toppings max - usually pepperoni and mushroom.

Folks outside of NY have a different view of what pizza is. A few years ago some friends invited me out for pizza at a place in the East Bay that, IMO, does a pretty good NY pie.  They went there weekly and the SOP was to go around the table and everyone picks a topping. When it got to me, I said ' nothing for me', so then the guy next to me said, 'Ok I'll pick one for you' :)
I explained that, it's not that I can't decide which of the 50 something available toppings to choose, I didn't want any more going on the pie, as they already picked 3 or 4. At that point I got some really puzzled looks, like, why not pile on as much as you can? In California, and much of the country I assume, pizza is just a substrate on which to build a salad.

We went back the next week and one guy suggested we order a large pie with toppings and a medium plain cheese to appease me. When the plain came, all but one of them tried it. The lone holdout look at it and said it was too weird for him. The others tried it, saying it was interesting, then went back to eating there bacon, feta, onion, sausage, chicken, pesto and bell pepper pizza.

I can respect that and to be perfectly honest, I enjoy the weird toppings I throw on mine and that is not to say that I do not enjoy a plainer type of pizza.  I do, if not prefer it.  I think it all depends on the day and the fact I can do whatever I want without issues of a pizza shop limiting my choices at all.  I guess that's the beauty of it. You're probably disgusted with my pies  ;)

Offline bregent

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Re: Could use some help with improvement
« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2017, 01:04:20 PM »
>You're probably disgusted with my pies  ;)

Not at all, your pies looks great. I just think sometimes less is more, and IMO, NY style does't work well with lots of toppings because it is so thin and flexible.  I love the taste/texture of a plain NY slice, but that's probably because I grew up on it. But I do enjoy other types of pizza as well. 
Bob

Offline Jhucke

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Re: Could use some help with improvement
« Reply #54 on: May 02, 2017, 09:38:58 PM »
I made my pizza with 62% hydration, no sugar and 1% oil this week and decided to cook it in a conventional oven this time.  I preheated the stone for 1 hour at 500 degrees.  The cook time was 6 minutes with a broil at the end to get the top to look how I wanted.  It should have been closer to about 5 minutes as that is when the bottom was perfect but I let it go in effort to get the top cooked.  It looked very very good, (sorry no pics) pretty much exactly how I expect NY style to look with one issue.. Even tho the bottom was close to burning, the slice was way too damn floppy and weak.  It was as if half the thickness cooked and the other was uncooked completely underneath the cheese. 

What should I try to for the slice to be more uniform?  I was thinking about reducing the heat to about 450-475ish so that the top has more time to absorb more heat.  Is my logic good?  I thought about it the reverse way, with a hotter environment, but I think that would cook the bottom even faster.  I have a convection oven that my family has found to be notorious for cooking things a lot faster than what we expect so I suspect it was hotter than 500.  If you all agree, I think I will take the temp down to 450 and see what happens tomorrow.

Again, this last pie REALLY played the looks part well when it comes to NY style, I was pleased with it much more over my blackstone.  I spent so much time trying to perfect a technique in that thing, but it is just such a pain in the ass in all honesty as much as I wanted to make it work.  I don't think it is the correct answer to NY style at home. 
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 09:40:30 PM by Jhucke »

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Offline Jhucke

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Re: Could use some help with improvement
« Reply #55 on: May 02, 2017, 09:58:49 PM »
I actually just thought about this more and realized that I had my pizza on the lowest rung in the oven.  I'm going to duplicate this tomorrow with it placed midpoint or even higher.  That way the air above the pizza will be much hotter but perhaps the stone wont be quite so hot... I don't know I guess, anyone want to chime in?

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Could use some help with improvement
« Reply #56 on: May 02, 2017, 10:36:44 PM »
I'm enjoying the comment that the plain slice was too weird, LOL :-D

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Could use some help with improvement
« Reply #57 on: May 03, 2017, 07:06:22 AM »
I agree with trying the stone higher in the oven. Not so sure about lowering the temp below 500 though. Did you measure the stone temp with an IR gun? I'm guessing it was a good bit hotter than 500. If you preheat less (and/or move stone location), to around 500 stone, you may find a sweet spot where everything bakes through and the cheese melts without the broiler. I'm thinking the 7-8 minute range, which is why you need the stone temp lower. Also, many members here have had success with convection, but I haven't had the opportunity to try it. The fan should get more heat to the top and melt the cheese faster.

« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 07:08:17 AM by hammettjr »
Matt

Offline Jhucke

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Re: Could use some help with improvement
« Reply #58 on: May 03, 2017, 10:44:22 AM »
I agree with trying the stone higher in the oven. Not so sure about lowering the temp below 500 though. Did you measure the stone temp with an IR gun? I'm guessing it was a good bit hotter than 500. If you preheat less (and/or move stone location), to around 500 stone, you may find a sweet spot where everything bakes through and the cheese melts without the broiler. I'm thinking the 7-8 minute range, which is why you need the stone temp lower. Also, many members here have had success with convection, but I haven't had the opportunity to try it. The fan should get more heat to the top and melt the cheese faster.

I'm sick of guessing and I have an IR thermometer on the way.  Should be here tomorrow and I will try again on the middle rack with precisely 500 degree stone temp.  I think this will improve my results greatly.

Offline Jhucke

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Re: Could use some help with improvement
« Reply #59 on: May 06, 2017, 09:32:37 AM »
Yesterday night was my best pie by far. The flavor was great and so was the texture. The biggest key to getting it to how everyone enjoys the crunchiness was reheating it on the hot stone for a little bit. I thought about doing this because a local NY style pizza joint does this.
This was a 7.5 minute wait time and I did have to blast it with the broiler for a bit still. 500 degree stone temp.

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