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Offline uppercrustpizza

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Pizza question
« on: August 03, 2019, 04:00:40 PM »
Hi,

I'm 24 and from the UK and opening a pizza shop. It's currently a cafe serving breakfasts meals and sandwiches but I'm adding pizza to the menu for the evening time.

There are so many recipes out there for dough but I'm unsure what one to try. I noticed your the Papa John's clone below but if you have any other suggestions for an american style pizza I appreciate them:

Recipe image here:
https://puu.sh/E0RE8/2263f06794.png

What does the water temperature need to be? If I need to make 20 pizza's should I just multiply the ingredients by 20?
How long should I mix the dough and I've noticed it needs to be refrigerated for 3-4 days. I want to make my dough the day before, is there a way to account for this?

Does anyone have weights for a 7" pizza, 10" and 14"? What should the weights be for thin crust too?

Thank you.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza question
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2019, 04:57:19 PM »
uppercrustpizza,

I think it would help to know what kind of pizza you would really like to make, and also what kind and size of mixer you plan to use, the type and brand of flour you plan to use, and what type and model of oven you plan to use. As you may know, Papa John's uses pizza screens or disks and an air impingement conveyor oven.

I noticed that you mentioned one of my PJ clone dough formulations, the one that I originally posted at Reply 2 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58197#msg58197

The abovementioned PJ clone formulation was for a 3-4 day cold fermentation. But I subsequently came up with a one-day cold fermentation version at Reply 31 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg60076#msg60076

I later modified the basic PJ clone dough formulation but I did not post a newer version for the one at Reply 31.

If you are sure that you want to make a PJ clone pizza, I should be able to come up with a version to try. I have read that Papa John's has around 350 stores in the UK so I am assuming that you know what a real PJ pizza is like. Otherwise, you should give us more guidance as to what you are really after in the way of a style or type of pizza. The answer to that matter will dictate the thickness of the crusts for the various sizes you mentioned.

Peter

Offline uppercrustpizza

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Re: Pizza question
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2019, 05:35:12 PM »
uppercrustpizza,

I think it would help to know what kind of pizza you would really like to make, and also what kind and size of mixer you plan to use, the type and brand of flour you plan to use, and what type and model of oven you plan to use. As you may know, Papa John's uses pizza screens or disks and an air impingement conveyor oven.

I noticed that you mentioned one of my PJ clone dough formulations, the one that I originally posted at Reply 2 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58197#msg58197

The abovementioned PJ clone formulation was for a 3-4 day cold fermentation. But I subsequently came up with a one-day cold fermentation version at Reply 31 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg60076#msg60076

I later modified the basic PJ clone dough formulation but I did not post a newer version for the one at Reply 31.

If you are sure that you want to make a PJ clone pizza, I should be able to come up with a version to try. I have read that Papa John's has around 350 stores in the UK so I am assuming that you know what a real PJ pizza is like. Otherwise, you should give us more guidance as to what you are really after in the way of a style or type of pizza. The answer to that matter will dictate the thickness of the crusts for the various sizes you mentioned.

Peter

There are many pizza shops in my area but all are cheap; and you can tell; unlike the US.

The quality ones which you will kill me for saying are the franchises; papa john's, dominos, pizza hut etc. I'd like to create something like this.

To answer your question regarding flour it's been suggested I use: https://www.wrightsflour.co.uk/products/our-flours/white-flours/bravo/
However I'm open to suggestions.

I've gone out and bought a 22l Fimar Dough Mixer; I'm targeting myself to sell 35 pizza's in a 7 hr shift, I may need to make 2 batches as I'm not sure how much 22l will make.

I'll also be using a Ventless oven likely the Ovention S2000 or the TurboChef 1618
https://oventionovens.com/oven/s2000/

I've also purchased cast iron pans for deep crust and screens for the thin crust, what weights should I be using for deep and thin for 7, 10 and 14" pizzas?

Thank you



Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza question
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2019, 07:20:41 PM »
Kyle,

As a beginner at pizza making, I think that you will find that making pizzas, and especially making and managing the dough, is a lot harder than it might seem at first blush. So, I would like to suggest that you pick a pizza size to experiment with and make several dough balls for that size to play around with before going for a larger dough batch. If you agree and can give me the size of pizza and the number of test dough balls that you would like to make, I should be able to come up with a Papa John's clone dough formulation for test purposes.

As for the Wright's flour, I am familiar with the name, as you will see if you go to the flour listing I put together at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.msg401012#msg401012, but I am not familiar with the Bravo flour per se that you noted in your last post. What I would like to know is the protein content for that flour. Ideally, I think you would want the PJ clone dough flour to have a protein content of around 13%. An example is the Marriage's strong white flour as shown and described at https://flour.co.uk/view/finest-strong-white. Allinson also has a high gluten flour as shown and described at https://www.allinsonflour.co.uk/products/very-strong-white but its protein content may be a bit on the high side and require a somewhat higher hydration value (the amount of water). But, for now, if you can find the protein content for the Wright Bravo flour, that would be a good start and tell us whether it is adequate for your purposes. You might also scan the aforementioned flour list to see if there are other sources of flour in the UK that you recognize.

I'm afraid that I may not be of much value to you in assessing the merits of the mixer and oven that you are using, but maybe some other members, possibly members who are also in the UK, may be able to help you. But for background reading, you may want to take a look at Tom Lehmann's dough management procedure as set forth at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43833.msg438770#msg438770. Your mix times are likely to be somewhat shorter than given in Tom's dough management procedure since you will be making a smaller dough batch. But for now, you may want to use a small home type mixer if you decide that you want to make a small number of test dough balls to play around with.

In your last post, you mentioned deep crust pizzas. I assume that you mean something other than a Papa John's pizza. Is there a particular version of deep dish pizza that you have in mind?

Peter

Offline uppercrustpizza

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Re: Pizza question
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2019, 05:09:01 AM »
Kyle,

As a beginner at pizza making, I think that you will find that making pizzas, and especially making and managing the dough, is a lot harder than it might seem at first blush. So, I would like to suggest that you pick a pizza size to experiment with and make several dough balls for that size to play around with before going for a larger dough batch. If you agree and can give me the size of pizza and the number of test dough balls that you would like to make, I should be able to come up with a Papa John's clone dough formulation for test purposes.

As for the Wright's flour, I am familiar with the name, as you will see if you go to the flour listing I put together at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.msg401012#msg401012, but I am not familiar with the Bravo flour per se that you noted in your last post. What I would like to know is the protein content for that flour. Ideally, I think you would want the PJ clone dough flour to have a protein content of around 13%. An example is the Marriage's strong white flour as shown and described at https://flour.co.uk/view/finest-strong-white. Allinson also has a high gluten flour as shown and described at https://www.allinsonflour.co.uk/products/very-strong-white but its protein content may be a bit on the high side and require a somewhat higher hydration value (the amount of water). But, for now, if you can find the protein content for the Wright Bravo flour, that would be a good start and tell us whether it is adequate for your purposes. You might also scan the aforementioned flour list to see if there are other sources of flour in the UK that you recognize.

I'm afraid that I may not be of much value to you in assessing the merits of the mixer and oven that you are using, but maybe some other members, possibly members who are also in the UK, may be able to help you. But for background reading, you may want to take a look at Tom Lehmann's dough management procedure as set forth at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43833.msg438770#msg438770. Your mix times are likely to be somewhat shorter than given in Tom's dough management procedure since you will be making a smaller dough batch. But for now, you may want to use a small home type mixer if you decide that you want to make a small number of test dough balls to play around with.

In your last post, you mentioned deep crust pizzas. I assume that you mean something other than a Papa John's pizza. Is there a particular version of deep dish pizza that you have in mind?

Peter

Absolutely, we're going to experiment and experiment until we get it right. We are not going to open and serve something that we wouldn't eat ourself, we are very critical of our food.

Let's experiment with 10" to start with and get that right, let's make 8 of them? Is this a good start?

Bravo Flour has 12.6g of protein.

There is also this flour that the supplier recommended: rank hovis as you like it flour - http://www.sallyjanespies.uk/images/Photos/As_You_Like_It.png
This has a protein content of 11.8g

In regards to deep and thin crust I have photos below of something I like:

Deep Dominos: https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article7972026.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200b/Dominos-Pizza.jpg
Thin Dominos: https://www.dominos.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Italian-style.jpg

Papa's Deep - https://blog.papajohns.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/original-crust.jpg
Papa's Thin - https://blog.papajohns.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/authentic-crust.jpg

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Offline Yael

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Re: Pizza question
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2019, 08:41:53 AM »
uppercrustpizza,

IMO you shouldn't rush for making pizza (I'm not saying your intention is to rush), but anyway, don't rush, read the forum and make researches. As Peter said, it's not that easy (well, you still have easier solutions: buying frozen disk dough, finding a pizza consultant...), but if you want to make your own quality, you'll want to know more about pizza making, and you'll fall in love with it ^^

So my first suggestion, take a couple of days to get familiar with the pizza world in this forum (you'll have all the answers you can imagine, and also the ones you'd never think about!)
Once you get the basis, it's actually not that complicated. Just respect the dosages and the temperatures, and you'll have something consistent.
Don't forget to keep us updated on your tests! And oh, don't forget to write down everything for your tests (+ pics), and change only one factor at a time  ;)
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza question
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2019, 01:54:02 PM »
Kyle,

I have set forth below a Papa John's clone test dough formulation for a 10" pizza. To do this, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html. At the outset, I should mention that I do not know the exact dough ball weight used by PJ for its 10" pizza. Previously, two members who were at one time affiliated with PJ both gave me their numbers for the dough ball weights for the different PJ pizza sizes but there were differences between their numbers. Some of that may be because PJ uses commercial dough rounders in its commissaries and dough ball weights can be off a fraction of an ounce. For my purposes, I decided to use 10 ounces of dough for a 10" PJ clone pizza. That translates into a thickness factor of TF = 10/(3.14159 x 5 x 5) = 0.127324. That is the thickness factor value that I used in the expanded dough calculating tool. I also assumed the flour is the Pizza Bravo flour that you mentioned. I believe that PJ is using a flour with a somewhat greater protein content than the 12.6 protein content of the Pizza Bravo flour but I think using the Pizza Bravo flour should work in the dough formulation I put together. I also used a bowl residue compensation of 1.5% in the expanded dough calculating tool to compensate for minor dough losses in the preparation of the dough. That will usually add a bit more weight to the dough balls so you should scale the dough balls to 10 ounces using a good scale. The PJ clone dough formulation that I came up with is for eight dough balls.

Here is what I came up with:

Flour* (100%):
Water (56%):
IDY (0.40%):
Salt (1.9%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (5.55%):
Sugar (5.89%):
Total (169.74%):
Single Ball:
1356.2 g  |  47.84 oz | 2.99 lbs
759.47 g  |  26.79 oz | 1.67 lbs
5.42 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.8 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
25.77 g | 0.91 oz | 0.06 lbs | 4.62 tsp | 1.54 tbsp
75.27 g | 2.66 oz | 0.17 lbs | 5.52 tbsp | 0.35 cups
79.88 g | 2.82 oz | 0.18 lbs | 6.68 tbsp | 0.42 cups
2302.02 g | 81.2 oz | 5.08 lbs | TF = 0.1292339
287.75 g | 10.15 oz | 0.63 lbs
*The flour is the Pizza Bravo flour with a protein content of 12.6%
Note: The dough is for eight dough balls each weighing 10 ounces; the pizza size is 10"; the nominal thickness factor is 0.127324; the bowl residue compensation = 1.5%

I suspect that a major challenge that you may encounter is "marrying" the dough formulation and the final dressed pizza to your particular oven to achieve the desired results. As I previously noted, Papa John's uses screens or disks and conveyor ovens. Their dough cannot be baked in a deck oven. That is because of the very high amount of sugar in their dough that can cause excessive bottom crust browning, or even burning, of the bottom crust. In your case with your particular oven you should carefully note how the test pizzas bake up. You should also note the temperature of the water used to make the dough, the finished dough temperature of the dough balls, the temperature of your cooler, and how well the dough balls handle when used to make the pizzas. Often problems can be solved by making adjustments to the dough formulation.

If I forgot anything or if you have any questions, please let me know.

Peter


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza question
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2019, 02:17:43 PM »
Deep Dominos: https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article7972026.ece/ALTERNATES/s1200b/Dominos-Pizza.jpg
Thin Dominos: https://www.dominos.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Italian-style.jpg

Papa's Deep - https://blog.papajohns.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/original-crust.jpg
Papa's Thin - https://blog.papajohns.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/09/authentic-crust.jpg
Kyle,

I took a look at the items linked in your last post but I was denied access to the second Domino's link.

However, I do not think that we have anything on the forum in the way of clones of the four pizzas you referenced. Moreover, in Domino's case, I am not sure that it currently makes and sells a deep dish pizza in the US. Several years ago, they did but it was later discontinued.

If you want to explore what goes into the Domino's pizzas, you can take a look at the ingredients listings as given at:

https://www.dominos.com/en/pages/content/nutritional/ingredients.jsp

With respect to Papa John's, it provides nutrition information for its pizzas at its website but as best I can tell it does not publicly disclose the ingredients for its pizzas. Many years ago it did but upon request. You can also get a bit more information on the PJ pizzas by using the search feature of the Nutritionix tool at http://m.nutritionix.com/papa-johns/menu/premium. It's been a while since I last played around with the Nutritionix database so it is possible that you might be able to get some information on the PJ ingredients. I have used the database mostly to get weight information on certain PJ pizzas.

Peter

Offline uppercrustpizza

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Re: Pizza question
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2019, 02:55:44 PM »
Thank you.

I'm going to give that recipe a try on Wednesday. Is there a temp for the water you recommend?

This is dominos thin crust and when I say thick crust dominos I'm referring to their classic. Thin crust below
https://i.postimg.cc/LsDnZQN9/7247-F41-F-72-A5-49-DE-8398-F5-BFB5508-FCE.png

Thank you pete
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 01:52:53 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza question
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2019, 03:38:49 PM »
I'm going to give that recipe a try on Wednesday. Is there a temp for the water you recommend?
Kyle,

There is actually an article by our own Tom Lehmann on the subject of water temperature to use. The article as originally prepared disappeared years ago but was salvaged in the Wayback Machine at:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070502014430/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml

I usually strive for a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F. That is in a home setting using a standard KitchenAid stand mixer. In a commercial setting, one can strive to get a finished dough temperature of around 80-85 degrees F because commercial coolers run cooler than a standard home refrigerator (which is what I use). For purposes of calculating the water temperature to use in the context of the above article, I use 12-15 degrees F for the friction factor, and that is with using low mixer speeds and a fairly standard dough batch size. In your case, you might use around 30-35 degrees F for your commercial mixer. Of course, you can run some tests as discussed in the article to determine the actual friction factor of your particular mixer. Once you gain experience, you will find that it is pretty easy to come up with the water temperature to use. Many people simply start with a water temperature of 70 degrees F and make adjustments around that temperature once a few dough batches are made. Where I am here in Texas, where it is warmer than where you are in the UK, I would need a lower water temperature. Some bakers will also use a chart such as the one created by the US miller General Mills, at:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/industries/bakery/support-tool-categories/technical-support/water-temperature-chart (click on Get Tool)

Peter

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Offline uppercrustpizza

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Re: Pizza question
« Reply #10 on: August 10, 2019, 01:04:25 PM »
Hi all,

I've had a go today at doing this but did a few things wrong.

1. I used Active Dry Yeast instead of Instant - I had to activate it with warm water but forgot to put sugar in, but still used the yeast. I may try fresh yeast next time, save the hassle.

2. I used rapeseed oil instead of vegetable, I'll switch this to vegetable oil next time.

3. I was struggling to get the water temp to 60 Fahrenheit / 15.5 deg Celsius. The cold water out of the tap was 19 deg celcius. Would this still be ok or do I need to put the water in the freezer to cool first?
    (The room temp and flour temp was both 75 Fahrenheit hence where I got 60 Fahrenheit for the water temp.)

4. I had to throw the dough away as after 15 minutes of mixing, it was still very very sticky and didn't clump together.

Photo of the dough - https://imgur.com/1f661657-a66d-42f9-8a3c-c42e55bf09d5

Video: https://imgur.com/a/MGe7ojs

Thank you
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 01:47:13 PM by uppercrustpizza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza question
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2019, 02:15:45 PM »
Kyle,

It is possible that your dough was so sticky because you forgot to add the sugar, which is a hygroscopic ingredient (it absorbs water). And there is a lot of sugar in the dough formulation you used such that more water was left at the mercy of the flour to absorb. Also, the oil has a wetting effect. And if you did not use part of the formula water to prehydrate the ADY, then you may have ended up with more water than the amount specified in the dough formulation. And sometimes a dough can become sticky if it is kneaded too long and/or at too high a speed. I have assumed that there were no weighing errors, but they could lead to an overly hydrated dough. But even in the face of one or more of these possibilities you might have been able to salvage the dough by adding more flour to the mixing bowl and on the work surface if necessary. But it is likely that the finished crust would be a lot different than a PJ clone crust.

As for the water temperature, what is most important is the finished dough temperature. If your tap water is too warm, or you do not have a source of cooler water, then one option is to reduce the amount of yeast to compensate. Also, you will want to go to the cooler as fast as possible once the dough balls are formed and scaled. A useful tool for determining the amount of yeast to use in the context of your particular cooler temperature is Craig's charts at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg271398#msg271398

Craig's charts should give you a rough idea as to how much yeast to use for your given cooler temperature. You may have to tweak the value a bit based on your actual finished dough temperature.

If you decide to use fresh yeast, then you will want to use about three times the weight of the IDY. To get an accurate weight number, you can use the expanded dough calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html.

FYI, I could not get the first link in your last post to work.

Hopefully, your next attempt will produce better results.

Peter

 

Offline uppercrustpizza

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Re: Pizza question
« Reply #12 on: August 11, 2019, 08:18:33 AM »
Kyle,

It is possible that your dough was so sticky because you forgot to add the sugar, which is a hygroscopic ingredient (it absorbs water). And there is a lot of sugar in the dough formulation you used such that more water was left at the mercy of the flour to absorb. Also, the oil has a wetting effect. And if you did not use part of the formula water to prehydrate the ADY, then you may have ended up with more water than the amount specified in the dough formulation. And sometimes a dough can become sticky if it is kneaded too long and/or at too high a speed. I have assumed that there were no weighing errors, but they could lead to an overly hydrated dough. But even in the face of one or more of these possibilities you might have been able to salvage the dough by adding more flour to the mixing bowl and on the work surface if necessary. But it is likely that the finished crust would be a lot different than a PJ clone crust.

As for the water temperature, what is most important is the finished dough temperature. If your tap water is too warm, or you do not have a source of cooler water, then one option is to reduce the amount of yeast to compensate. Also, you will want to go to the cooler as fast as possible once the dough balls are formed and scaled. A useful tool for determining the amount of yeast to use in the context of your particular cooler temperature is Craig's charts at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg271398#msg271398

Craig's charts should give you a rough idea as to how much yeast to use for your given cooler temperature. You may have to tweak the value a bit based on your actual finished dough temperature.

If you decide to use fresh yeast, then you will want to use about three times the weight of the IDY. To get an accurate weight number, you can use the expanded dough calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html.

FYI, I could not get the first link in your last post to work.

Hopefully, your next attempt will produce better results.

Peter

Hi,

I've had another go today and same problem, very sticky dough.

Measurements are fine and I changed the ADY to IDY, I followed Tom's dough instruction and same issue.
The dough seems ok before the oil is added, after the oil is added it goes wrong.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza question
« Reply #13 on: August 11, 2019, 08:49:22 AM »
Hi,

I've had another go today and same problem, very sticky dough.

Measurements are fine and I changed the ADY to IDY, I followed Tom's dough instruction and same issue.
The dough seems ok before the oil is added, after the oil is added it goes wrong.
Kyle,

It looks like the combination of water and oil may be too much for your flour. It is also possible that you have a bad batch of flour. You might try dropping the hydration by about 2-3% and the oil by a percent or two and see if that helps.

Do you have the specs for the Pizza Bravo flour by any chance?

Peter

Offline uppercrustpizza

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Re: Pizza question
« Reply #14 on: August 11, 2019, 10:04:00 AM »
Kyle,

It looks like the combination of water and oil may be too much for your flour. It is also possible that you have a bad batch of flour. You might try dropping the hydration by about 2-3% and the oil by a percent or two and see if that helps.

Do you have the specs for the Pizza Bravo flour by any chance?

Peter

I've tried Tom's recipe and it worked. Similar liquid total percentage, it's possible the flour was weighted wrong.

Anyway here's a photo

https://imgur.com/a/S1YWUVW

How do I get better round balls? Tom's recipe didn't say how long to put them in the fridge for, from the yeast percent how long should it be? Check link for bakers percent

Thanks

https://imgur.com/a/S1YWUVW
« Last Edit: August 11, 2019, 10:11:33 AM by Pete-zza »

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza question
« Reply #15 on: August 11, 2019, 12:45:03 PM »
Kyle,

When Tom Lehmann shows a dough recipe for a NY or similar type of pizza and calls for 0.375% IDY and 2% sugar, he usually intends that the dough, with proper management, be cold fermented for 2-3 or even 4 days. The purpose of the sugar is to be sure that the yeast is adequately fed over the entire fermentation period and that there are sufficient residual sugars at the time of bake to contribute to crust coloration. Otherwise, less or no sugar would be used. If the objective is to have only a day of cold fermentation, no sugar would be called for but the amount of yeast would usually be increased.

As for making dough balls, and also other activities that go into making and handling the dough balls from beginning to end, you might want to take a look at the videos cited in Reply 1141 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg375523#msg375523

For a more recent video that also features Tom, you might check out this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=10&v=j76hK-lNUWA

And to see how Tony Gemignani says to form dough balls, see this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=he-V1J86REA

Peter

Offline uppercrustpizza

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Re: Pizza question
« Reply #16 on: August 13, 2019, 02:51:35 PM »
Kyle,

When Tom Lehmann shows a dough recipe for a NY or similar type of pizza and calls for 0.375% IDY and 2% sugar, he usually intends that the dough, with proper management, be cold fermented for 2-3 or even 4 days. The purpose of the sugar is to be sure that the yeast is adequately fed over the entire fermentation period and that there are sufficient residual sugars at the time of bake to contribute to crust coloration. Otherwise, less or no sugar would be used. If the objective is to have only a day of cold fermentation, no sugar would be called for but the amount of yeast would usually be increased.

As for making dough balls, and also other activities that go into making and handling the dough balls from beginning to end, you might want to take a look at the videos cited in Reply 1141 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg375523#msg375523

For a more recent video that also features Tom, you might check out this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=10&v=j76hK-lNUWA

And to see how Tony Gemignani says to form dough balls, see this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=3&v=he-V1J86REA

Peter

Hi Peter,

I've had some better luck with the recipe but I don't think it's for us.

I've followed Tom's recipe on that video and we like it. We used the dough after 24 hours but as you said it's for 2-4 days due to the sugar.

Should I drop the sugar completely as I intend to use after 24 hours? And if so what percentage should the IDY be?

One final question: Toms crust is quite pale, how do we get done colour?
At the moment it's on a 3 min cook on 265 Deg celcius 100% air bottom and 75 percent top. If I increase the air the cheese burns.

By the way my flour is white and not malted.

Thanks

Photos below of the PJ clone and of Tom's recipe.

https://imgur.com/a/Qctem5R
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 03:03:26 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza question
« Reply #17 on: August 13, 2019, 03:52:14 PM »
Kyle,

Since the flour you are using is not malted, I think I would be inclined to proceed to remedy that deficiency. In the US, it is common for millers, such as General Mills, to use 0.10-0.20% malted barley flour--also known as diastatic malt--in the unmalted flours. The diastatic malt works on damaged starch in the flour to create a source of sugars for the yeast to use as food and also to contribute to crust coloration at the time of bake. You can read more about diastatic malt at https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_d. I'm not sure exactly what strength of diastatic malt is used by GM and other millers but its degree Lintner value is likely to be considerably above 100. You can read about the Lintner values at https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_d.

Some time ago, I had an exchange with a UK member in which I mentioned a diastatic malt, called Diax, that was available in the UK. You can read the exchange at Reply 14 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40925.msg408981#msg408981, and at Reply 16 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40925.msg409021#msg409021

You will note that the UK member was using the Bravo Pizza flour. If the Diax diastatic malt is available to you, I would be inclined to use the recommended amount as specified in the Diax document at https://www.bakerybits.co.uk/diax-diastatic-malt-flour.html#detailedproductinfo. You will also note from the pdf Diax Datasheet at https://www.bakerybits.co.uk/downloads/dl/file/id/113/product/632/diax_datasheet.pdf that the degree Lintner value for the Diax diastatic malt is 120-180. If you cannot locate a source of Diax but can find an alternative, let me know what you find as an alternative. But, either way, the diastatic malt is not intended to be a substitute for sugar but it is implicated in the creation of sugars for crust coloration purposes. If it turns out that the dough will benefit from some sugar based on your test results, then a small amount (around 1%) might work.

With respect to the amount of IDY to use, I would use Craig's charts as given in the thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg271398#msg271398

If you click on a chart, it will become enlarged. In using one of the charts, for example, the one shown in the first post in the above thread, you should first try to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F and then select the temperature at which the dough is to be cold fermented, which I assume would be the temperature of your cooler, and then look for the number of hours (the closest number) that the dough is to be cold fermented. The cross point of the two numbers will lead you to the amount of IDY to use (at the top of the chart). You should bear in mind that the amount of yeast is a starting point and may need adjustment based on the results you achieve. You may also have to tweak or extrapolate the numbers in the chart if the actual numbers you plan to use are not found exactly on the chart.

You should also keep in mind that if you reach the point where you are making a large number of dough balls for a commercial setting you will need to find a good way to handle and manage the larger number of dough balls. This includes dough storage and management solutions such as you may have seen in one or more of the videos I cited in my last post.

I hope you will keep us informed of your progress.

Peter

 

Offline uppercrustpizza

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Re: Pizza question
« Reply #18 on: August 14, 2019, 05:30:19 AM »
Thank you.

If I wanted to make a 8 hour batch, because I would like to cold ferment there is no % of IDY for 2 degree / 8 hour fermention. Does this mean I should leave them out to ferment at room temp to achieve the quick 8 hour turnaround?

Thanks again.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizza question
« Reply #19 on: August 14, 2019, 09:45:34 AM »
Thank you.

If I wanted to make a 8 hour batch, because I would like to cold ferment there is no % of IDY for 2 degree / 8 hour fermention. Does this mean I should leave them out to ferment at room temp to achieve the quick 8 hour turnaround?

Thanks again.
Kyle,

Yes, you should go with a room temperature fermentation. You can see an example of where I made an 8-hour room temperature fermented Papa John's clone dough at Reply 24 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59357#msg59357

In your case, which may vary from what I did in Reply 24, and especially if you go with a Lehmann style dough, you should be able to use Craig's chart as shown in the opening post of the thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.0

Peter

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