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Author Topic: 1st question! RE: tough/hard crust yet good everything else.  (Read 648 times)

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Offline Trigpizza

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Hi all, Iím new here! Just started my pizza making journey. I ordered an ooni kudo (super excited for it) and as I wait for it in delivery, Iíve been making a few batches of Dough for practice.

In the meantime Iím using an electric Pizza oven (stone floor on the oven) that gets to about 550.

I follow this simple recipe from glen and friends cooking on YouTube.



Here is it if you donít want to click:
500g (100%) Ď00 pizza flour
15g (3%) sea salt
5g (1)% active dry yeast
300g (60)% water

I follow the directions spot on... I donít throw the yeast in with the salt directly. I use the flour as a buffer.

I mix in a bowl using a wooden spoon, then when it comes together in the bowl, I let it rest for about half hour.

Then I take it out of the bowl and knead by hand for 7-10 mins.

The dough looks great. It goes into a bowl with plastic wrap air tight for 3-4 days.
In that time, there are amazing bubbles that form in the dough.

When itís pizza making time, I take it out of the fridge/bowl and form my dough balls.

I place dough balls Into a tray and cover to allow them to proof for about 2 hours.

The dough balls feels great, stretch well and everything looks nice. I try not to play with the dough too much and do everything by hand.

When I cook, the crust forms that nice crown, but itís hard and tough. (The crust only) the rest of the pizza is good, there are nice air bubbles in the crust as well on the inside. Itís just....hard and not soft at all they way I want it to be and have had so many times at proper pizzarias.

Am I doing something wrong? Am I possibly kneading it too much? Or with poor technique? Is it simply that the oven temp sucks and the crust will be pleasant and ďproperĒ once I get the ooni? (Due to the much higher temp)

Hope to hear some feedback!

Online foreplease

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Re: 1st question! RE: tough/hard crust yet good everything else.
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2019, 11:55:23 PM »
Hi Trig, welcome to the forum. I watched about half of the Glen and Friends video. If you can post some pictures of your next bake it will help people figure out how to help you.


For starters, you donít have enough heat for 00 pizza flour. When you get your Ooni Kudo you may have better luck. Itís good that you are practicing now as it will take many attempts to find your idea of an ideal crust. Make only one change per batch so you can be sure how that change affected the outcome. I take that back, try one ingrediemt change and one change in baking temp and time at a time. Try using bread flour for your next indoor batch. I think others here will tell you to reduce the amount of yeast. Possibly cut it by as much as 50%, or more, for your multi-day cold ferment (CF). Itís good that you have the patience for that already at this early stage. Use cold water and check the finished dough temperature. You want something in the 75-80į range for your final dough temp after mixing and kneading.


How long did the batch you mentioned bake and was it at 550? Did you preheat it for 45-60 minutes with the stone in the oven?
-Tony

Offline Heikjo

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Re: 1st question! RE: tough/hard crust yet good everything else.
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2019, 02:34:34 AM »
Welcome and congratulations on the purchase!  :chef:

It's no problem using 00 flour at 550F. It probably won't brown as well (unless it's malted) and bread flour will likely work better, but since you've ordered a Kona and presumably plan to bake at higher temperatures then, I don't think it's a bad idea to get some experience with the 00 flour in your home oven. Unless you plan to use the electric oven in the future too, I wouldn't worry too much about your results with it.

If you baked at 550F, I assume it was in there at least 6 minutes? That's the reason the crust isn't soft. What makes a Neapolitan soft is that it's baked in 30-90 seconds, not the recipe or ingredients. That will solve itself once you get access to higher temperatures.

And as always, photographs helps a lot when asking for advice.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 02:36:53 AM by Heikjo »
-Heine. Mostly Neapolitan sourdough pizzas in an electric Effeuno P134H.

Offline Yael

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Re: 1st question! RE: tough/hard crust yet good everything else.
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2019, 03:39:29 AM »
Another input: when you bake at a lower temperature, you may need a higher hydration of the dough (because the dough will bake longer, so with the higher hydration you'll keep more moisture for the crumb and get a crispier crust). But higher hydration can be harder to handle (depends on how much higher of course).
Anyway, as Heikjo said, if you plan to definitely switch on your Ooni don't worry too much on your current results!
ďLearn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artistĒ - Pablo Picasso

Offline Trigpizza

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Re: 1st question! RE: tough/hard crust yet good everything else.
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2019, 04:55:02 PM »
Thanks so much! For the replies. You guys are awesome !

Here are a few pics.

To answer one of the questions, I donít plan on ever using this again once the ooni arrives!

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Online foreplease

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Re: 1st question! RE: tough/hard crust yet good everything else.
« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2019, 05:33:54 PM »
Based on your last picture above and confirmed by how you described when you balled the dough in your first post above, you need more time between forming each dough ball and when you open each one to make your pizza. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 hours, at a minimum (does not have to be out of the fridge for all of those hours) and up to Ďthe sky is the limit,í meaning 12 hours to several days.


The bottom line is dough is difficult to work into a shape one would like for a conventional pizza if it has been balled too close to when one wants to use it. Try 6 hours or more and have the last 2 be on your counter.


You have an excellent start though.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 09:11:37 PM by foreplease »
-Tony

Offline Trigpizza

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Re: 1st question! RE: tough/hard crust yet good everything else.
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2019, 05:48:16 PM »
Based on your last picture above and confirmed by how you described when you balled the dough in your first post above, you need more time between forming each dough ball and when you open each one to make your pizza. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 6 hours, at a minimum (does not have to be out of the fridge for all of those hours) and up to Ďthe sky is the limit,í meaning 12 hours to several days.


The bottom line is dough is difficult to work into a shape one would like for a conventional pizza if it has been balled to close to when one wants to use it. Try 6 hours or more and have the last 2 be on your counter.


You have an excellent start though.


Ahhh okay!

Seriously, thank you for the tips! Iím a little confused with the fine details but Iíll also experiment with trial and error.

To confirm, is it best that after i remove the dough from the fridge to leave it in the bowl for hours? Or should I form The balls right away and then leave them balled and to sit for 6 hours?

Still unsure when to stop kneading as the dough honestly felt the same after kneading it for 2 minutes to the final knead.
I guess Iíll do less kneading next time and see how it goes.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 05:50:54 PM by Trigpizza »

Online foreplease

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Re: 1st question! RE: tough/hard crust yet good everything else.
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2019, 06:19:02 PM »
Youíre welcome. Others much more skilled than I will come along and comment.


With the long fermentation time you are using, Iím sure you could spend less time kneading. Couple minutes total should be fine but you will develop a feel for how what you like behaves at various stages.


Leave them balled for at least 6 hours before you plan to use them. Start with that. Last 2 hours should be out of the fridge and covered in some way. Saran, upside down bowl, wet towel. The other 4 hours could be in or out of the fridge but I suspect with your yeast level in the fridge would probably be better.


Good luck.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2019, 09:12:32 PM by foreplease »
-Tony

Offline wiz_d_kidd

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Re: 1st question! RE: tough/hard crust yet good everything else.
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2019, 04:36:22 PM »
In another thread, Tom "The Dough Doctor" has said "These flours also have a short fermentation tolerance so, depending upon which one you're looking at think in terms of 12 or 24-hours total fermentation time."  Here's the link:  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=56764.msg570498#msg570498

I've done up to 48 hours cold ferment with Caputo Chef's 00 flour using less yeast (than your recipe), but longer than that, I notice the dough quality degrades.

Offline bbqchuck

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Re: 1st question! RE: tough/hard crust yet good everything else.
« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2019, 02:39:14 PM »
Also, read up on using a steel or iron plate in your 500-550F oven to get more spring in the dough from the initial higher heat transfer (than a stone).

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Offline Yael

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Re: 1st question! RE: tough/hard crust yet good everything else.
« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2019, 08:51:56 PM »
In another thread, Tom "The Dough Doctor" has said "These flours also have a short fermentation tolerance so, depending upon which one you're looking at think in terms of 12 or 24-hours total fermentation time."  Here's the link:  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=56764.msg570498#msg570498

I've done up to 48 hours cold ferment with Caputo Chef's 00 flour using less yeast (than your recipe), but longer than that, I notice the dough quality degrades.

Caputo Cuoco is a strong flour, no problem with CF a couple of days! But be sure about your cold Tį: the dough ball must be between 2 and 4įC at heart, at this temperature, the yeast is asleep but many enzymes are still working, the dough is ripening. FWIW, I made many tests with many different flours over 24/48/72/96H periods, and 72H was always the best in flavor (96H wasn't making a lot of differences, but from 48 to 72H there was still a new step). And when my dough is very cold in my fridge, I can really keep it many days (although it's not really needed).
If your cold is not that low and steady (home fridge for example), the dough will be fermenting at a slow rate, but as it's fermenting, the gluten weakens faster, that's why after 2 or 3 days only the dough starts to be weak.

Just a reminder on a connection that I got only 1 or 2 years ago: yeast is fungus and sourdough lives thanks to bacteria, so when your food starts to rot in your kitchen, it's exactly the same chemical/biological process! A dough that is fermenting is just a dough that is rotting, except that it's still edible  :P And in the fridge, at a very low temperature, the foods rot at a very lower rate because the life in it (bacteria, enzymes, fungus...) is sleeping.

I don't know if I'm clear in my explanations  :-D
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