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Author Topic: Indoor pizza oven advice  (Read 1679 times)

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Offline Yael

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Re: Indoor pizza oven advice
« Reply #20 on: June 07, 2020, 10:30:02 AM »
I meant when you open the door to rotate the pizza.
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Offline miloandmilk

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Re: Indoor pizza oven advice
« Reply #21 on: June 07, 2020, 01:41:26 PM »
Crazy stuff with the gas burner Yael  ;D I love it!

I think I have one of these under a different brand name in the UK. Only used it once because it got really hot on the outside. Good to know that's how just how they are, might try it out again some time when it's too wet outside for the Rocbox.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Indoor pizza oven advice
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2020, 01:42:14 PM »
You'll have to turn the pizza, because it's always colder next to the door. The oven heats at 350°C, but when you open the door, you do lose a couple of degrees, so the actual average baking temperature may more likely between 290 and 330°C... That's a flaw you need to be aware of.

Have you considered adding some "stone" cladding to the walls of the oven?  That might give it more thermal mass to counter the loss and who knows maybe bake the cornicione better.  I've also read of people who have modded chinese ovens by adding more insulation, changing the thermostat, etc.

Here are some threads on the confraternita's forum about Chinese ovens, probably mostly readable with google translate: https://laconfraternitadellapizza.forumfree.it/?t=77657503 and https://laconfraternitadellapizza.forumfree.it/?t=73783848
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline typicalsam

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Re: Indoor pizza oven advice
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2020, 06:11:46 PM »
Personally
 I would try and save up another 300 quid and get the F1 p134h. You can do more or less any type of pizza in it including a fairly legit neapolitan pizza as it reaches 500c.

Appreciare that's more than double the budget but the pizzas that come out of it are unreal, and you'd probably get a good resale value off it if you change your mind on the future.

Offline miv

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Re: Indoor pizza oven advice
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2020, 06:32:55 PM »
Personally
 I would try and save up another 300 quid and get the F1 p134h. You can do more or less any type of pizza in it including a fairly legit neapolitan pizza as it reaches 500c.

Appreciare that's more than double the budget but the pizzas that come out of it are unreal, and you'd probably get a good resale value off it if you change your mind on the future.
I don't have local sellers for the p134h. GGF Micro V/Fimar Micro 1C are available for around 500 euro. PIZZAGROUP COMPACT M35/8 for 600 euro.

But now that I started reading the mods mentioned by amolapizza, I am wondering if perhaps I should get the Chinese countertop and mod after all.
I do not know where to buy isolation/stones though.

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Offline Yael

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Re: Indoor pizza oven advice
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2020, 09:18:54 PM »
Have you considered adding some "stone" cladding to the walls of the oven?  That might give it more thermal mass to counter the loss and who knows maybe bake the cornicione better.  I've also read of people who have modded chinese ovens by adding more insulation, changing the thermostat, etc.

Here are some threads on the confraternita's forum about Chinese ovens, probably mostly readable with google translate: https://laconfraternitadellapizza.forumfree.it/?t=77657503 and https://laconfraternitadellapizza.forumfree.it/?t=73783848

Haha, there are crazy guys over there too  ;D

I did think about adding stones on the walls but this was ok with me (and I didn't find the right stones that could fit in at that time). I don't see the point of adding a terracotta stone except if you boost the resistances to go to +500°C (I don't know if they can anyway).

In the original setting of this oven you obviously can not bake Neapolitan style, but you can do pretty much anything else. For 2-3 pizzas each bake, it's a fairly good oven. I don't know what would be my choice if I lived in Europe with its European price, but here I don't regret it at all (in China it costs 100€, and as I said, I don't have any other oven so I also bake everything else than bread and pizza in this one).

PS: the pic which indicates 380°C, I was aiming at the top resistances, they do reach 400°C. It doesn't mean the T° which reaches the pizza is 400°C of course, there's distance.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2020, 09:26:20 PM by Yael »
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Indoor pizza oven advice
« Reply #26 on: June 08, 2020, 06:27:51 AM »
I don't have local sellers for the p134h. GGF Micro V/Fimar Micro 1C are available for around 500 euro. PIZZAGROUP COMPACT M35/8 for 600 euro.

But now that I started reading the mods mentioned by amolapizza, I am wondering if perhaps I should get the Chinese countertop and mod after all.
I do not know where to buy isolation/stones though.

You can buy the oven directly from Effeuno at: https://www.gastrovens.com/it/i-nostri-prodotti/1-p134h.html (this is the 450C version) and currently the 500C version is available at: https://www.gastrovens.com/it/29-promo

I bought my biscotto separately by sending an email (in Italian) to [email protected]

Fibre glass and fibre blankets you can probably either buy locally or on Amazon, Ebay, etc.  Thermostats can also be gotten on Amazon and other online platforms.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Indoor pizza oven advice
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2020, 06:30:05 AM »
Nice looking pizza Yael!
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline Yael

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Re: Indoor pizza oven advice
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2020, 06:49:08 AM »
Nice looking pizza Yael!

Thanks! That's just a basic Margherita ^^ (there's the whole pizza on the 3rd pic of my 15th reply of this thread).
It was 275g dough ball for 12'.
It had 0.5% dough enhancer (reply 7 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=62556.msg620627#msg620627) which helped a little bit for the coloration (amylase), which can be replaced with 2 to 4% sugar.
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Offline miv

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Re: Indoor pizza oven advice
« Reply #29 on: June 08, 2020, 07:46:48 PM »
Thanks for all the links to the mods guys :)

Do I really need a biscotto for 400 C+? Yael's oven seems to use normal stone?

Also can someone correct me if I am wrong => biscotto is made out of clay, while normal stones are corderiete/chamotte/terracota?
Also is there some difference between Cordierite/Chamotte/Terracota in terms of usage/pricing/etc.?

As for fibre glass and fibre blankets, what's the difference between those two?

Also is it true that mineral wool is better than fibre isolation?

btw I cannot find cheap thermos that go above 400 C(analog ones), there are cheap PIDs though

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Offline Yael

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Re: Indoor pizza oven advice
« Reply #30 on: June 08, 2020, 08:57:58 PM »
A biscotto will need a high temperature or a looooong time to heat up. I experienced the difference in my custom GFO (FYI, reply 20 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=62477.msg623315#msg623315): I started with this electric oven's white stone, then switched to the terra-cotta one (BTW, terra-cotta and clay are the same, aren't they?), and it takes much longer to get to 400-430°C, even with the high radiation of the flame, so I imagine that with the electric resistance I would take a decade or two lol.
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Indoor pizza oven advice
« Reply #31 on: June 09, 2020, 03:48:20 AM »
Thanks for all the links to the mods guys :)

Do I really need a biscotto for 400 C+? Yael's oven seems to use normal stone?

Also can someone correct me if I am wrong => biscotto is made out of clay, while normal stones are corderiete/chamotte/terracota?
Also is there some difference between Cordierite/Chamotte/Terracota in terms of usage/pricing/etc.?

As for fibre glass and fibre blankets, what's the difference between those two?

Also is it true that mineral wool is better than fibre isolation?

btw I cannot find cheap thermos that go above 400 C(analog ones), there are cheap PIDs though

It's been said and I think it's true based on my own experience that somewhere around 350-400C most normally used materials will start burning the bottom of the pizza as they are too conductive.  A biscotto  (terra cotta) made from volcanic clay, sand, (and I think) ash is much less dense and thus transfers the heat more slowly into the bottom, avoiding the problem.  The cost of a terra cotta stone isn't high, likely the transport will cost more.

Regarding oven isolation materials I'm not 100% sure of the details, but AFAIK, commonly used materials include rockwool, glasswool, ceramic fibre blankets, etc.  By adding more isolation the heat will be better contained inside the oven helping with the baking while also keeping the outside of the oven cooler.

I replaced the upper thermostat in my Effeuno oven with this 500C one: https://www.amazon.de/dp/B01NBQZSWC/?tag=pmak-20

A PID is probably also an interesting option, I'm considering making some experiments with PIDs instead of thermostats in my oven.  Though as it works pretty well as it, I haven't started with that yet.  You'd probably have to make sure that the electronics and the solid state relay doesn't get too hot though.  I have the impression that thermostats are more robust in a high heat environment.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Indoor pizza oven advice
« Reply #32 on: June 09, 2020, 03:56:07 AM »
I started with this electric oven's white stone, then switched to the terra-cotta one (BTW, terra-cotta and clay are the same, aren't they?), and it takes much longer to get to 400-430°C, even with the high radiation of the flame, so I imagine that with the electric resistance I would take a decade or two lol.

AFAIK terra cotta is made from refined and fired clay, the biscotto is specifically formulated for use as a deck in pizza ovens, and I think it's made from volcanic clay, sand and ash.  In my oven with 1900W above and 850W below it takes maybe 30-40 minutes to be saturated with heat.  Apparently it's not recommended at lower heat.  I tried it in my domestic oven for baking bread and it left the bottom much lighter in color than my normal stone, which is an old cheese serving stone made from (I think) granite.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline barryvabeach

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Re: Indoor pizza oven advice
« Reply #33 on: June 09, 2020, 07:04:56 AM »

A PID is probably also an interesting option, I'm considering making some experiments with PIDs instead of thermostats in my oven.  Though as it works pretty well as it, I haven't started with that yet.  You'd probably have to make sure that the electronics and the solid state relay doesn't get too hot though.  I have the impression that thermostats are more robust in a high heat environment.

I have only built 1 PID,  but I see comments here about them and wonder why.  A PID is a great thing in an electric smoker - it uses a computer chip, and once it is tuned, knowledge of how fast my oven heats and cools, so it lets me dial in the temp very precisely, say plus or minus a few degrees.  When you consider that a pork shoulder may be in the smoker for 16 hours,  225 F will give a totally different result than 200F or 250 F over that long a time, and I don't want to be checking the temp all the time.  In contrast, for a pizza oven, I normally set it as high as it will go,  and while I may walk away for a minute or so, I am usually watching the pie during most of the baking -  so  the exact temp does not matter as much ,  I am watching it to see when it is done. 

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Indoor pizza oven advice
« Reply #34 on: June 09, 2020, 07:57:05 AM »
In my case it would mostly be for the sake of tinkering, I'm not sure if it would be better or worse than a thermostat.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

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Offline miv

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Re: Indoor pizza oven advice
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2020, 06:31:57 AM »
A biscotto will need a high temperature or a looooong time to heat up. I experienced the difference in my custom GFO (FYI, reply 20 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=62477.msg623315#msg623315): I started with this electric oven's white stone, then switched to the terra-cotta one (BTW, terra-cotta and clay are the same, aren't they?), and it takes much longer to get to 400-430°C, even with the high radiation of the flame, so I imagine that with the electric resistance I would take a decade or two lol.

Actually I got the chinese oven. I was wondering about a few things:
In the instructions it said to just preheat to 50 C and increase the temp by 50 C every 30 mins.
Then let it run on 350 C while the oven is open.

  • Should I preheat it the whole time while it's open?
  • Do I need to prepare the stone? Ie. clean it before the first use? Should I use just water?
  • Also does stone placement matter? There is a notch in one of the sides of the stone,
    and I assumed this notch should face the face of the oven.

I've already started the process by heating to 50 C and then to 100 C for a few mins,
but then I though about those questions and read on website that it's possible
for pizza to smoke bad if the stone was not cleaned prior to the first use,
so I stopped at 100 C.

I've looked around and could not find such info for this oven, so I really appreciate your help :).

Offline Yael

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Re: Indoor pizza oven advice
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2020, 09:55:45 AM »
Hi,

I don't recall having heated up step by step... This is not a freshly made brick-WFO, so IMO... no special need (you know it's like you're supposed to check and set all the mirrors each time you drive your car..)
So 1) if you think there's a strong smell you can leave it open;
2) just pass a humid cloth on the stone to remove the dust (no soaps);
3) I also noticed the notch and thought it had a meaning but it's been 8 years and my stones tried all the sides! My 1-deck's stone doesn't have this.
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Offline miv

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Re: Indoor pizza oven advice
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2020, 04:57:31 PM »
Hi,

I don't recall having heated up step by step... This is not a freshly made brick-WFO, so IMO... no special need (you know it's like you're supposed to check and set all the mirrors each time you drive your car..)
So 1) if you think there's a strong smell you can leave it open;
2) just pass a humid cloth on the stone to remove the dust (no soaps);
3) I also noticed the notch and thought it had a meaning but it's been 8 years and my stones tried all the sides! My 1-deck's stone doesn't have this.

Ok, thanks for the info. So I will just heat it up and wait till the smell is gone. :)

And one last thing - what about curing the stone with vegetable oil, is that necessary?
Like described here for example:
https://www.soapstonepizzastones.com/?page_id=111

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