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Author Topic: A Couple of Dough Management Questions  (Read 642 times)

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Offline yerrbo

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A Couple of Dough Management Questions
« on: September 17, 2019, 09:00:26 PM »
Ahoy!

I had a couple of questions around dough management and wanted to get some opinions.  I was speaking someone knowledgeable and he was saying that when using Caputo Pizza flour that I should cold ferment it for more than 48 hours, that after the 48 hour mark and especially into the 72 hour mark it becomes more prone to tearing and a bit more difficult to work with.  Should I limit Caputo to a 48 hour cold ferment?  And if I do, do I need to increase the yeast amount?  Right now I'm looking at 20% Sourdough Starter, but that's for a 72 hour ferment.

The second item was around the necessity of cross stacking when using a fork mixer.  I've heard that it's not necessary to cross stack after balling and boxing dough when using a fork mixer because the temperatures don't reach as high, is this true?  Thanks in advance for your guidance!

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: A Couple of Dough Management Questions
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2019, 09:50:47 PM »
It's impossible to comment on your question regarding the yeast amount as we don't know how much you're presently using, but the advice you got about using a fork type mixer and not cross-stacking is incorrect in my humble opinion. The reason for cross-stacking is to achieve improved consistency in cooling the dough balls AND to eliminate the formation of condensation within the dough box due to the dough being warmer than the ambient temperature in the cooler. It's just a matter of basic physics.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline yerrbo

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Re: A Couple of Dough Management Questions
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2019, 09:58:05 PM »
It's impossible to comment on your question regarding the yeast amount as we don't know how much you're presently using
 

Hey Tom,

I'm currently using 20% sourdough starter (levain) in baker's percentage with 100% Caputo Pizzeria flour.  I was advised that the Caputo shouldn't be cold fermented more than 48 hours because it's low protein and was wondering if you would also advise the same thing.  Does that provide enough context to advise on the cold ferment time?  Thanks!

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: A Couple of Dough Management Questions
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2019, 11:51:46 PM »
I did quite a bit of work with the different Caputo flours last year, the Caputo Pizzeria, while high in protein content doesn't exhibit good fermentation tolerance which is a characteristic of the soft wheat protein as opposed to the amount of protein present. When it comes to adding sourdough starters it's a wild guess as to how much to use unless you know both the pH and TTA of the starter you're adding. It might be a case of your starter just being too strong at the 20% level so my first inclination would be to use it at a lower use level, maybe try it at 15% and then 10% to see if that helps any. Remember, a dough that has excessive acidity will be weak and tear easily ans it also might show signs of being difficult to achieve a decent bottom crust color.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline yerrbo

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Re: A Couple of Dough Management Questions
« Reply #4 on: September 18, 2019, 10:07:54 AM »
I did quite a bit of work with the different Caputo flours last year, the Caputo Pizzeria, while high in protein content doesn't exhibit good fermentation tolerance which is a characteristic of the soft wheat protein as opposed to the amount of protein present. When it comes to adding sourdough starters it's a wild guess as to how much to use unless you know both the pH and TTA of the starter you're adding. It might be a case of your starter just being too strong at the 20% level so my first inclination would be to use it at a lower use level, maybe try it at 15% and then 10% to see if that helps any. Remember, a dough that has excessive acidity will be weak and tear easily ans it also might show signs of being difficult to achieve a decent bottom crust color.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Really appreciate your thoughtful reply Tom and this makes total sense.  I'll go ahead and try a 48 hour cold ferment and see what the differences are between that and a 72 hour ferment.  If it's significant then I'll try adjusting the amount of yeast.  In general I haven't found the end result to have much in the way of sourness, nor have I received that feedback, so I'm guessing the TTA and pH aren't too high.
 But if I can achieve a similar crumb and flavor profile on a 48 hour cold fermented dough then I'd much prefer to go with that. Thanks!

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: A Couple of Dough Management Questions
« Reply #5 on: September 18, 2019, 06:21:19 PM »
On a separate note, are you happy with cold-fermenting a formula based on sourdough in general?

I was never happy with 100% cold fermented sourdoughs. Like many others on this forum, I got much better results with Caputo Pizzeria by switching to 1.7-2% starter and 65F fermentation in a cooler or wine fridge for 48 hours (24 hour bulk, 24 hour ball). I would recommend trying that if you haven't already (TxCraigs recipe is a sticky in the Neapolitan forum). The sourdough ferments much better at 65F than 39F, and both the texture and flavor are superior to a cold-fermented sourdough.

If you prefer to stick to cold ferment, you might have better luck with something like 5-10% starter and a pinch of IDY. The IDY will help prevent over-acidification of your dough and also provide a bit more oven spring during baking.
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline yerrbo

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Re: A Couple of Dough Management Questions
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2019, 07:46:27 PM »
On a separate note, are you happy with cold-fermenting a formula based on sourdough in general?

I was never happy with 100% cold fermented sourdoughs. Like many others on this forum, I got much better results with Caputo Pizzeria by switching to 1.7-2% starter and 65F fermentation in a cooler or wine fridge for 48 hours (24 hour bulk, 24 hour ball). I would recommend trying that if you haven't already (TxCraigs recipe is a sticky in the Neapolitan forum). The sourdough ferments much better at 65F than 39F, and both the texture and flavor are superior to a cold-fermented sourdough.

If you prefer to stick to cold ferment, you might have better luck with something like 5-10% starter and a pinch of IDY. The IDY will help prevent over-acidification of your dough and also provide a bit more oven spring during baking.

So far it's been just fine, although for a while I was doing same-day room temp ferments and I think it turned out well.  I switched to cold and I've ben getting the same or better feedback on the dough as with the room temp ferment.  But even with 20% levain at 72 hours of cold ferment I am not finding it's over-acidified on the taste side of things although it is slightly more difficult to work with.  This is why I'm considering a 48 hour cold ferment instead assuming it doesn't impact the taste.  I plan on trying the two in a Pepsi challenge this weekend.  The other piece of advice I got was to switch out 10% of the Caputo for a stronger flour just to prevent the tearing of the dough at 72 hours. 

I feel like I'm never quite there with my dough recipe...

Offline DoouBall

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Re: A Couple of Dough Management Questions
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2019, 10:54:25 PM »
I get the feeling of it not ever being quite there, so that's why I asked if you're happy with the way it's turning out. Your Pepsi challenge sounds like fun!

Cold ferment with 20% sourdough levain is a somewhat non-standard way to make pizza dough and I believe it's not very popular because sourdough fermentation doesn't thrive in a very cold environment. Even commercial yeast has trouble if the temperature of your fridge runs really low like mine which tends to drop to 32F suddenly (Thanks SubZero!). On the other hand, I have done many hybrid doughs with 10-15% sourdough and anywhere from a pinch to 1/4 tsp of instant yeast in the fridge, and didn't have any problems for 72 hours fermentation with Caputo Pizzeria. The longer you go, the more the gluten breaks down and the dough becomes wetter, more liquidy and harder to stretch evenly, so you can just go by feel here and try to find the sweet spot for your conditions. Personally, I think you'd be happier with either room temp/wine fridge sourdough only, or switch to a hybrid method if you're going to use the fridge and go past 48 hours.

If you use 20% sourdough, you're pretty much using a formula similar to Tartine bread - and that's fermented about 8 hours at room temp with amazing flavor. There's really no need for a 48-72 hour ferment with a 20% sourdough IMHO. But that said, if you want to stick to your current workflow, you can try Caputo Chef's flour, if that's an option for you. It's 13%+ protein and designed for longer fermentations so it should hold up better.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 10:55:59 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

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Offline yerrbo

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Re: A Couple of Dough Management Questions
« Reply #8 on: September 19, 2019, 12:08:28 AM »
I get the feeling of it not ever being quite there, so that's why I asked if you're happy with the way it's turning out. Your Pepsi challenge sounds like fun!

Cold ferment with 20% sourdough levain is a somewhat non-standard way to make pizza dough and I believe it's not very popular because sourdough fermentation doesn't thrive in a very cold environment. Even commercial yeast has trouble if the temperature of your fridge runs really low like mine which tends to drop to 32F suddenly (Thanks SubZero!). On the other hand, I have done many hybrid doughs with 10-15% sourdough and anywhere from a pinch to 1/4 tsp of instant yeast in the fridge, and didn't have any problems for 72 hours fermentation with Caputo Pizzeria. The longer you go, the more the gluten breaks down and the dough becomes wetter, more liquidy and harder to stretch evenly, so you can just go by feel here and try to find the sweet spot for your conditions. Personally, I think you'd be happier with either room temp/wine fridge sourdough only, or switch to a hybrid method if you're going to use the fridge and go past 48 hours.

If you use 20% sourdough, you're pretty much using a formula similar to Tartine bread - and that's fermented about 8 hours at room temp with amazing flavor. There's really no need for a 48-72 hour ferment with a 20% sourdough IMHO. But that said, if you want to stick to your current workflow, you can try Caputo Chef's flour, if that's an option for you. It's 13%+ protein and designed for longer fermentations so it should hold up better.

So, I should probably mention that I'm working on a Pizzeria concept so while I'm happy with the way it turns out in the sense that IMHO a 20% levain pizza, even at a 72 hour cold ferment, has much better flavor than 99.9% of the competition (who are using IDY, ADY, or cake yeast), I do want to continue to improve my recipes and dough management process.  My initial question around the 48 hour versus the 72 hour cold ferment was probably more about finding the balance between the appropriate amount of fermentation needed from the cold ferment to achieve great flavor while getting the dough to a consistency where we can eliminate any dough and pizza loss to tears. 

I have spent a lot of time thinking about doing a room temperature ferment, but I'd like to avoid that if I can because I think that can lead to a lot more dough spoilage until demand can be properly worked out, and even then you never know when you'll get a rush or a lull. 

All that being said I really appreciate your insights, opinions, and wisdom as I think I will always need to be improving and this kid of stuff is super helpful in finding new ways to improve quality and balance that with efficiency.  Thanks!

Offline DoouBall

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Re: A Couple of Dough Management Questions
« Reply #9 on: September 19, 2019, 01:36:56 PM »
I see - that makes sense. Then my suggestion would be to experimentally learn the number of hours you can go with your current starter and Pizzeria flour until the dough is no longer workable, and stay under that, or switch to a stronger flour such as Caputo Rosso (the red bag) or Central Milling 00 Reinforced which will allow you to go longer. Good luck with your Pizzeria concept!!!
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 01:39:09 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

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Offline yerrbo

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Re: A Couple of Dough Management Questions
« Reply #10 on: September 19, 2019, 10:12:56 PM »
I see - that makes sense. Then my suggestion would be to experimentally learn the number of hours you can go with your current starter and Pizzeria flour until the dough is no longer workable, and stay under that, or switch to a stronger flour such as Caputo Rosso (the red bag) or Central Milling 00 Reinforced which will allow you to go longer. Good luck with your Pizzeria concept!!!

Really appreciate all the advice, thanks so much!

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