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Offline amolapizza

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Pizza Tonda Romana
« on: September 29, 2019, 12:33:13 PM »
I've been baking neapolitan style for awhile now.  Recently I've taken an interest in the pizza tonda romana (Roman round pizza), which often also is called scrocchiarella (roughly meaning crunchy/crackly). A thin crunchy bottom with a crackly border is the result desired.  Though even in Rome this varies a bit from pizzeria to pizzeria so it's hard to say what the gold standard would be.

I've decided that I want to improve on my knowledge and capability with this style, so I thought it would be a good idea to document my progress in a thread, and hopefully helpful for anyone else that wants to try the style.

Since this type of pizza hasn't been codified it's difficult to give precise information, and probably there are a lot of ways to go about this (Rome is a big city with many pizzerias). :)

The information given below should be taken as a guide line, most of my starting point is coming from a thread on the Italian Confraternita della Pizza's forum (google translate does a pretty good job at translating): https://laconfraternitadellapizza.forumfree.it/?t=71679964  The information in this thread seems to correspond more or less to what I've read elsewhere.

The pizza is made from a low hydration dough (~56%) with added oil and typically with a short maturation time.  The ball weight is around 180g, and the size 30-32cm, a roller is often used to extend the disk, but there are techniques for doing it by hand too.  Oven temperature is about 300C for a 3 - 3 1/2 minute cooking time. 

In the thread referenced above, the following recipe is given:

1l water
1.8kg flour
20g extra virgin olive oil
35g salt
2g dry yeast at 24 hours of which 20 are bulk in the fridge and 4 in balls at RT
4g dry yeast at 6 hours of which 3 are bulk and 3 in balls at RT

This translates to a baker's percentage of about:

55.6% hydration
1.94% salt
1.11% EVO
0.111% dry yeast for 24h CT/RT
0.222% dry yeast for 6h RT

My last try was as follows (for 7 balls, 180g, 3/3h at 23C):

792g Caputo pizzeria
444g water (56%)
16g salt (2.0%)
9g EVO (1.1%)
1.72g CY (0.217%)

I mixed all of it except the EVO in my spiral mixer for 3 minutes, added the EVO and mixed another 9 minutes, then 10 minutes pause and finally another 30s to make the dough come together, all at the lowest speed (final dough temp was at 27.6C which is probably too high).  I think the mixing might have been a bit too long given the short maturation time, the strength of the flour, and the short time in balls.  I wasn't able to extend the disks by hand and had to resort to a roller.  The pizza got to around 28-30cm, the plates in the photos are 28cm.

The balls had levitated too much, so next time time I'll be using less CY.  I wasn't sure about what temperature the original recipe referred to, so used a pizza calculator to calculate the amount.

Pizza was cooked in my F1 p134h electric pizza oven with a so called biscotto (a 3cm thick terracotta stone) instead of the stock refractory stone.  Probably the refractory stone is the better choice at this temperature range as it can give more heat faster, but I'm lazy and don't like switching stones often :)  I want to see if I can make it work well with the biscotto.  This time I used 375C below and 300C above, cooking time was about 3 minutes.

The last photo is of something really excellent.  I know it from the Neapolitan culture where it's called a Panuozzo.  Mine aren't especially beautiful but a great thing to do with left over dough balls.  I just took the dough balls, and gently stretched them to be longer and as wide as I could make them.  Then I oiled them on top and added sea salt crystals and oregano.  They ought to puff up like pita breads when baked.  Then you cut them open as a book, top them, heat them in the oven, and finally fold them and eat like a sandwich.  Toppings could be pancetta on one side, and provolone on the other side, so many great mixes to be made, just like pizza :D
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 04:04:09 PM by amolapizza »
Jack

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Offline Yael

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Re: Pizza Tonda Romana
« Reply #1 on: September 29, 2019, 11:40:32 PM »
Don't know if you remember the link I posted here before (reply 1) https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=59139.0

Your pizzas look good. I'm just not convinced about the short fermentation time with these flours for this style of pizza. Perhaps a W200-220 flour would be better.

How was it?

BTW, "scrocchiarella" is also the name of a mix for Pala pizza made by Tiziano Casillo (Italmill flour)... Recently I saw the word a couple of times but destined for pizza romana and I was surprised, so I write it in case someone like me is confused..! (type "scrocchiarella" on Google images and the results will be the Pala pizza one)
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 11:45:26 PM by Yael »
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Pizza Tonda Romana
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2019, 05:06:55 AM »
Yes I remember that post, it was interesting reading.  It also more or less confirms the thread where I got my basic information from.  I also intend to step away from the traditional way and explore longer maturation times, and extending the disks by hand.  Last week I did more or less the same dough but matured for 9 hours and kneaded a shorter time in the spiral mixer, that dough I managed to stretch by hand to about 28cm.

I'm also not convinced by the short maturation time.. The thread on the confraternita recommends polselli classica  which has a W of around 270 (more or less the same as caputo pizzeria) for the 6 hour dough, and a W of around 300 for the 24 hour dough.  I'm not sure how important the strength of the flour and the maturation/fermentation time is for the final result.  I suspect that the caputo pizzeria would also work for 24 hours.

I think it was very tasty and the cornicione had a good crunch, while the bottom was probably a bit too soft.  It might work better with the refractory stone instead of the biscotto, or maybe I have to try at 250C and a longer bake time.  Though I'm not sure that I want to go much over 3 minutes cooking time considering the toppings and cheese melt..

I also think I've noticed that I get more thirsty after eating this compared to neapolitan..  Maybe my imagination or the result of consuming a quite immature dough.  Can't say that I remember this effect with neapolitan style made from caputo pizzeria and 8-9h maturation time.

Yes I know that there is confusion concerning pizza naming :)  Scrocchiarella can indeed also be used to refer to pizza in teglia and pala, probably as the Romans seem to like all their pizza crunchy :)  I think it's probably best to refer to this variant as pizza tonda romana, this would probably avoid most misunderstandings.  These things can lead to fierce arguments in Italy..  Many friends of the Napolitana would probably also argue that this is an abomination and shouldn't be called pizza at all.. :)
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Pizza Tonda Romana
« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2019, 01:18:28 PM »
Another tonda romana session.

4x180g doughballs, 4h/5-6h at 23C

Caputo pizzeria 453g (100%)
Water 253g (56%)
Salt 9g (2%)
EVO 5g (1.1%)
CY 0.5g (0.11%)

Mixed in a spiral mixer at low speed for 7 minutes, FDT 23.4C.  Cooked for 3 minutes in a F1 P134H with the refractory stone at 300/325C (upper/lower thermostat).  I think the balls were probably a little bit too fermented, will try with less yeast next time.  This time I had no problem to extend the skins by hand to ca 30cm.  Maybe they were a little thin in the middle, but none broke while baking.

I was very happy with the improvement from last time.  Dough was much more workable and the pizza was crunchier.  Just a little too soft in the middle, especially the prosciutto/funghi, but with all the water from the fresh mushrooms..  Possibly they could have done with a little bit longer cooking time.  I also think I'll increase the salt next time (unless I made a mistake measuring), I found the crust tasty but bland due to too little salt.
« Last Edit: October 13, 2019, 02:15:42 PM by amolapizza »
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline Yael

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Re: Pizza Tonda Romana
« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2019, 07:39:05 PM »
It seems that you could bake a little longer, what do you think?
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Pizza Tonda Romana
« Reply #5 on: October 14, 2019, 04:26:58 AM »
Yes I think so too.  I wanted to see the effect of the thermostat settings and 3 minutes on several pizzas.  Also the cheese melting made me reluctant to go longer, will try thicker (or colder) slices next time.  They were however fully cooked, no trace of raw or gummy dough..
Jack

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Pizza Tonda Romana
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2019, 11:12:48 AM »
And another tonda romana session.

4x180g doughballs, 2h/7-8h at 21-22C

Caputo sacorosso 453g (100%)
Water 253g (56%)
Salt 9g (2%)
EVO 5g (1.1%)
CY 0.4g (0.11%)

Mixed for 7 minutes in a spiral, FDT was 25.7C.  The pizza extended by hand to 30cm (the first was only 28cm).  Cooked for 3.5 minutes in the F1 P134H with the refractory stone at 300/325C (upper/lower thermostat).

This was the best result so far.  The dough balls seemed to be at an appropriate fermentation point, and was easy to extend by hand.  The bottom crust was quite crispy/crunchy except for the prosciutto/funghi that was very wet in the middle.  But then again raw mushrooms release a lot of water when cooked for so long.

All in all I was very happy with the result.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2019, 02:06:37 PM by amolapizza »
Jack

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Pizza Tonda Romana
« Reply #7 on: November 03, 2019, 10:13:53 AM »
I had another tonda romana session.  This dough was inspired by what I've learnt about the Da Michele dough procedure. 

4x180g doughballs, 24h/7-8h at 19C

Caputo sacorosso 453g (100%)
Water 253g (56%)
Salt 9g (2%)
EVO 5g (1.1%)
CY 0.1g (0.022%)

First I dissolved salt and then yeast in the cold water and left it for 5 minutes, then I added the flour and mixed at low speed (68 rpm) for 3 minutes, then I added the oil and mixed at low for another minute.  I then did a pause of 10 minutes and finally let the mixer do 3 turns of the bowl to bring it together.  FDT was 21.6C.  In retrospect and looking at the dough when balling and the final appearance of the balls I think I'll need to increase the mixing a little bit next time, and maybe lower the yeast amount.

The puntata was 24 hours at 19C.  The apretto was 4 hours at 19C and then I moved the dough box with the balls to the kitchen (22-23C).  The dough balls were very workable, but a bit more delicate than the 9 hour dough from last week, possibly also slightly over fermented.

Cooked for 3.5 minutes in the F1 P134H with the refractory stone at 300/325C (upper/lower thermostat).

Unfortunately I created a thin spot when extending the first, and subsequently holed the pizza while turning.  Result was a huge mess on the deck and I had to wait another hour for my own pizza.  I should have listened to myself saying throw it away and open another one, or not turned it in the oven at all.

This time I cut the fior di latte in smallish cubes to slow down the melt.  I liked the result and will try this again.

This was extremely tasty pizza, by far the best I've made in this style.  Nice thin/crunchy/crackly and with a really good taste to the crust.  In fact for the first time in my pizza making career, Elena (my fiancee and primary pizza critic) exclaimed that this pizza is heaven! :D

The funghi was finished off post bake with some naturally flavoured truffle oil, it was really really good, while the red pepper and salsiccia wasn't anything special at all :(  If it gets a next time, maybe some garlic and possible hot peppers are in order.

One tentative conclusion is that there is no intrinsic need to use a short maturation for this style of pizza.  The 32 hour dough turned out just as crunchy (or even more so) as last week's 9 hour dough.  The difference I perceived was that it was tastier and made me less thirsty, but this can be accidental or my imagination :)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 10:25:03 AM by amolapizza »
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Pizza Tonda Romana
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2019, 09:51:51 AM »
Yesterday I had another session, the same recipe but scaled to 6 dough balls.  Unfortunately I found myself with 20g of leftover dough after scaling, so I must have made a measuring mistake :(  Normally I target 56%, it seems likely the extra 20g was from water, so that would have brought hydration up to around 59-60%. I had also increased the salt level to 2.36%, and the mixing time in the spiral to 10m at low speed (68 rpm).

The dough was a lot softer and had risen more, I guess from increased hydration.  It reminded me a lot more of my neapolitan dough than how this roman dough has felt until now.  I had to be a lot more careful while extending the disks and they had a tendency to easily form a thin spot.

The pizza did not brown in the same way and even increasing the baking time by 15-30 seconds didn't get the coloring I desire on the cornicione.  The crunch was also less than with the usual lower hydration dough.

My tentative conclusion is that increasing hydration is not a good move for this style of pizza, and that increased hydration does indeed have an influence on dough structure, browning, and cooking time.

I'm not going to post a lot of photos as the results were not very inspiring, but here are the dough balls just before baking and a diavola.

Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline Yael

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Re: Pizza Tonda Romana
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2019, 07:48:34 PM »
Balls look nice! How many grams again?
Last time(s) I made pizza, I prepared a couple of 180g (for 12'), I took a pic but there was nothing very exciting about it... It's indeed thinner, but more or less like a Neapolitan without the big cornicione!
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Pizza Tonda Romana
« Reply #10 on: November 11, 2019, 03:53:11 AM »
180g.  I think the difference for tonda romana really lies in the lower hydration, the way they are extended, and the lower oven temperature / longer cooking time.

BTW, I saw a photo of you with Pino Arletto in another thread.  I've also met him, and thought it was a really nice guy with a lot of knowledge to share.  I'd like to go to Italy and make a course with him, maybe someday...

Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline Yael

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Re: Pizza Tonda Romana
« Reply #11 on: November 11, 2019, 06:35:08 AM »
180g.  I think the difference for tonda romana really lies in the lower hydration, the way they are extended, and the lower oven temperature / longer cooking time.

BTW, I saw a photo of you with Pino Arletto in another thread.  I've also met him, and thought it was a really nice guy with a lot of knowledge to share.  I'd like to go to Italy and make a course with him, maybe someday...

Yeah I met him 2 years ago, and I may see him again tomorrow or the day after tomorrow if I have time to go to the FHC Shanghai (a big F&B fair). Like most of famous people, he was indeed nice and very open! He doesn't speak English so we had to speak Spanitalian (Spanish & Italian)  :-D
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Pizza Tonda Romana
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2019, 06:51:47 AM »
If you see him, please say hi to him from Jack, the old hippie at Rimini this last spring.
Jack

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Offline Yael

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Re: Pizza Tonda Romana
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2019, 07:28:12 AM »
If you see him, please say hi to him from Jack, the old hippie at Rimini this last spring.

Sure!  :)
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Pizza Tonda Romana
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2019, 05:05:42 PM »
I was tired after playing a concert, so let the balls go until lunch next day.  They ended up with 24h bulk and 24 hours in balls (180g) at 17C (instead of 8 hours in balls).

Flour 565g (Caputo sacorosso)
Water 316g (56%)
Salt 13g (2.3%)
EVO 6g  (1.0%)
CY 0.10g (0.018%)

Balls were very well behaved, a lot of volume and nice and plastic.  They started showing thin spots in the middle at around 28cm, but I stretched some to 30cm and no problems on the peel nor cooking them.

Cooked for about 3.5 minutes in my p134h at 300/325C (above/below).

As work called with changed plans I didn't have enough time, so made two panuozzi too.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 05:09:54 PM by amolapizza »
Jack

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Offline niko

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Re: Pizza Tonda Romana
« Reply #15 on: November 28, 2019, 03:00:20 PM »
That one looks the best so far I would say! I also wanted to look into Pizza Romana a bit (especially since here in Europe, at least in Germany it seems to be the standard "italian pizza", even though everybody just writes Pizza Napoli).

What kind of sauce are you using? Very basic and tomato heavy like for the neapolitan, or something different?

Offline naval2006

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Re: Pizza Tonda Romana
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2019, 12:02:18 PM »
Amazing pizza.  And great pizza making. I’ll give it a try soon

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Pizza Tonda Romana
« Reply #17 on: November 30, 2019, 11:16:50 AM »
Thanks guys!

The sauce is Mutti pomodori pelati bio, hand crushed and then hit with a stick mixer a few times.  I add about 2g of fleur de sel to a 400g can.  I used to use Mutti San Marzano, but since the cans changed to the 2018 vintage I find them not good at all and very over priced.  These Mutti pelati bio are much tastier and a lot cheaper..  I add some salt but not too much, as I like to sprinkle some on top of the pizza unless it has very salty ingredients.

I'm planning to make a NY detour at some point too, so I guess I'll get the possibility to investigate other styles of tomato sauce.  But for the moment this is my goto for both Neapoliatan and Tonda Romana.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Pizza Tonda Romana
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2019, 07:25:07 AM »
And more tonda romana ;)

I was going to change the refractory stone for the biscotto to investigate what temperatures to use and how well it would cook this style.  Unfortunately the light bulb broke when I turned the oven on, which made it very difficult to see what's going on inside.  I replaced it with the refractory stone, as by now I have the settings dialed in pretty well and can rely on a timer set to three and a half minutes.

I increased the mixing time in my spiral to see what effect it would have.  This time I mixed at the lowest speed (68 rpm) for 20 minutes.  I added the flour little by little and at the 17 minute mark I added the oil.  Then I let it rest for 5 minutes and then ran the mixer again for 1 minute.  Final dough temperature was 25.3C.

This wasn't a good idea as I think I noticed the effects of the long mixing even after 32 hours (24+8) of maturation.  The panetti were rounder instead of the normal lenticular form and it was difficult to try to extend them by hand (though I might have succeeded if I would have persisted).  I resorted to using a rolling pin and rolled them out to circa 30cm.  Even though I stretched them once again on the peel, they seemed to shrink slightly when put in the oven.  The pizza ended up being some 28-29cm in diameter (the plates are 28cm).

I won't be repeating such a long mixing time for this style.  I think the final pizza was also more chewy than normal, though Elena didn't notice.  Maybe it's something I can try again if/when I get around to trying NY style.

The recipe for 6 x 180g balls (24 hours bulk and 8 hours apretto at 17-18C).

678g Caputo saccorosso
380g Water (56%)
15g Salt (2.2%) (40g/L)
8g EVO (1.2%) (20g/L)
0.15g CY (0.022%)

Cooked in my F1 P134H for 3.5 minutes with the thermostats set at 300C/325C (upper/lower).  Except for the chewiness they were again really really tasty.  I might up the salt level still a little more as I thought the crust might still be missing some.  But on the other hand I'm a smoker and tend to use a lot of salt on everything..  Think I'll try 45g per liter next time, and I'll rely on Elena to tell me when I've gone too far with the salt.. :D
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 07:32:55 AM by amolapizza »
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Pizza Tonda Romana
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2019, 01:17:25 PM »
I made some experiments with the biscotto.  This is with it set to 300C upper and 450C lower, 3.5m cooking time and a formula similar to above.  Not sure which way cooks better, both good but slightly different.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

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