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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Troubleshooting my Last Bake
« Reply #40 on: October 06, 2019, 09:06:42 PM »
Someone should chime in on rapid rise...

But for regular instant yeast, Craig's prediction chart indicates that for 6 hours at 74 degrees you'd want 0.10% IDY.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg349349#msg349349
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Offline novawaly

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Re: Troubleshooting my Last Bake
« Reply #41 on: October 12, 2019, 04:28:39 PM »
novawaly,

With respect to the food processor, maybe these threads will help:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2189.msg19289#msg19289

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12877.msg125013#msg125013

Peter

Hi Peter,

So i read through these. My last attempt didn't come out very well. The dough had too much rise and the finished dough ball was very elastic and ripping in the middle as i tried to stretch. I read through your post on the processor dough. I was wondering if you could describe how the dough ball feels when it's finished? Mine was sticky and still a bit wet and wondering if that's normal or if that could be causing the rips in the ball. Im thinking maybe I'm not processing for long enough to develop the gluten network if it's ripping?

My process is here below. I want to try again tonight and I'm trying to narrow down what could be causing the problem.

Process:
Chilled water to 38 degrees.
Added KAAP flour to the processor.
Added remaining dry ingredients (IDY, Salt, Sugar, LDM)
Added Water and pulsed 7-8 times until all mixed together.
Let sit for 15 minutes.
Added Oil
Continue to pulse until it was all incorporated and dough was rising above blade. About 1-2 minutes of pulsing
Checked dough ball temp - 78 degrees.

Dough still had a bit of a sticky feel - removed from processor, added a little more flour as I did a few stretch and folds and it was no longer wet.

Balled and covered with a little oil and put into deli container uncovered on counter initially. (74 degress in the kitchen). After about 1.5 hours it was rising so punched it down by doing a few stretch and folds and put back into container covered.


Offline foreplease

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Re: Troubleshooting my Last Bake
« Reply #42 on: October 12, 2019, 06:31:59 PM »
I use a Cuisinart.  I subtract The flour temp from 160 and use that for my water temp.  That gives a dough temp of 78F after 45-50 seconds.
Iíve been thinking about this and am having trouble making sense of it. The resulting water temp seems surprisingly high on the couple calculations I did. If flour temp is 72, 160-72=88 water temp with a FDT of 78 in a food processor? I need to try the food processor again for pizza. Itís been a long time. There are definitely some good things about using one.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Troubleshooting my Last Bake
« Reply #43 on: October 12, 2019, 06:48:54 PM »
Hi Peter,

So i read through these. My last attempt didn't come out very well. The dough had too much rise and the finished dough ball was very elastic and ripping in the middle as i tried to stretch. I read through your post on the processor dough. I was wondering if you could describe how the dough ball feels when it's finished? Mine was sticky and still a bit wet and wondering if that's normal or if that could be causing the rips in the ball. Im thinking maybe I'm not processing for long enough to develop the gluten network if it's ripping?
novawaly,

Generally speaking, once I had learned how to use the food processor effectively to make pizza dough, I would thereafter have a pretty good feel for how a given dough would work out based on the amount and type of flour, the hydration value, and the amount of any other liquid, like oil. But if I didn't quite get it right and the dough was a bit on the wet side, I would simply add more flour on the bench until the final dough was no longer wet. But if the dough was a bit tacky, that was OK. As I discussed at Reply 3 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2189.msg19294#msg19294, I went by feel as much as anything else.

The process that you described for making the dough seems to be OK in my opinion. However, other factors, such as the hydration value and the amount of yeast and how the dough is managed after it has been made can have an effect on the fermentation and elasticity or extensibility of the dough. If you can indicate the quantities of the ingredients of your dough, I may be able to provide additional commentary.

Peter

Offline novawaly

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Re: Troubleshooting my Last Bake
« Reply #44 on: October 12, 2019, 08:08:51 PM »
I took the previous response's advice and dropped my yeast to .1% since i was doing a 6 hour RT rise. I was using .4% and .2% in my two prior attempts so we'll see how this one works.

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Troubleshooting my Last Bake
« Reply #45 on: October 12, 2019, 08:41:44 PM »
I took the previous response's advice and dropped my yeast to .1% since i was doing a 6 hour RT rise. I was using .4% and .2% in my two prior attempts so we'll see how this one works.
novawaly,l

I see some similarities between your experiment and one of mine that I discussed at Reply 24 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59357#msg59357

As you can see from Reply 24, there are many factors that can govern the performance of a dough, and especially so for a dough that is to be fermented at room temperature. There are multiple temperatures involved in the process. And yeast quantity is also a major factor. In my case, I also used 0.10 % IDY. I also used a stand mixer but I could have used my food processor to get similar results.

Peter

Offline novawaly

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Re: Troubleshooting my Last Bake
« Reply #46 on: October 12, 2019, 11:03:40 PM »
novawaly,l

I see some similarities between your experiment and one of mine that I discussed at Reply 24 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59357#msg59357

As you can see from Reply 24, there are many factors that can govern the performance of a dough, and especially so for a dough that is to be fermented at room temperature. There are multiple temperatures involved in the process. And yeast quantity is also a major factor. In my case, I also used 0.10 % IDY. I also used a stand mixer but I could have used my food processor to get similar results.

Peter

Good read. I def underestimated the impact a .1 of IDY can have. Hopefully this is the sweet spot. I'll report back tomorrow.

Great looking pie in that thread though!

Offline novawaly

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Re: Troubleshooting my Last Bake
« Reply #47 on: October 16, 2019, 04:06:37 PM »
I wasn't sure if this was worthy of a new thread so I figured I'd just add to this.

I was watching some of the videos of pizza slices on the stickied thread and came across this one:

https://youtu.be/4J5Pvz4XkYk?t=63

I've timestamped the video to where he's opening up the dough and notice that it looks completely different than mine. His is far whiter than mine and also looks so much "floppier", wetter and more stretchable than mine. It almost opens up on its own. I'm wondering - what in the process is most responsible for dough like that?

Is it mostly hydration percentage? It seems my formulation (below) is lower than a lot of the ones ive read on the site (which are between 60-64). Does higher hydration usually mean a more strechable, "loose" dough ball? Also, any other ingredients I should be experimenting with that would have an impact?

Flour (100%):    260.61 g  |  9.19 oz | 0.57 lbs
Water (58%):    151.15 g  |  5.33 oz | 0.33 lbs
IDY (.1%):    1.04 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Salt (2%):    5.21 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Olive Oil (2%):    5.21 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
Sugar (1%):    2.61 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.65 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
LDM (2%):    5.21 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Total (163.4%):   425.84 g | 15.02 oz | 0.94 lbs | TF = 0.085


Thanks so much for the continued advice!
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 04:21:14 PM by novawaly »

Online chrisgraff

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Re: Troubleshooting my Last Bake
« Reply #48 on: October 16, 2019, 08:52:35 PM »
I wasn't sure if this was worthy of a new thread so I figured I'd just add to this.

I was watching some of the videos of pizza slices on the stickied thread and came across this one:

https://youtu.be/4J5Pvz4XkYk?t=63

I've timestamped the video to where he's opening up the dough and notice that it looks completely different than mine. His is far whiter than mine and also looks so much "floppier", wetter and more stretchable than mine. It almost opens up on its own. I'm wondering - what in the process is most responsible for dough like that?

Is it mostly hydration percentage? It seems my formulation (below) is lower than a lot of the ones ive read on the site (which are between 60-64). Does higher hydration usually mean a more strechable, "loose" dough ball? Also, any other ingredients I should be experimenting with that would have an impact?

Flour (100%):    260.61 g  |  9.19 oz | 0.57 lbs
Water (58%):    151.15 g  |  5.33 oz | 0.33 lbs
IDY (.1%):    1.04 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Salt (2%):    5.21 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Olive Oil (2%):    5.21 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.16 tsp | 0.39 tbsp
Sugar (1%):    2.61 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.65 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
LDM (2%):    5.21 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Total (163.4%):   425.84 g | 15.02 oz | 0.94 lbs | TF = 0.085


Thanks so much for the continued advice!

1. Hydration
2. Weak gluten structure

Offline novawaly

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Re: Troubleshooting my Last Bake
« Reply #49 on: October 25, 2019, 04:13:12 PM »
I think I might've been over kneading in the food processor. I went up to a 64% hydration and I was still having the same elasticity problems with my dough.

I dropped back down to 58% the next day and did a hand knead and finally saw some difference and was able to strech it without too much of a struggle.

Any tips on what to do to improve from here:

formulation:
15x1
Flour (100%):     299.49 g  |  10.56 oz | 0.66 lbs
Water (58%):     173.7 g  |  6.13 oz | 0.38 lbs
IDY (.1%):     0.3 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.1 tsp | 0.03 tbsp
Salt (2%):     5.99 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.25 tsp | 0.42 tbsp
Oil (2%):     5.99 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
Sugar (1%):     2.99 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.75 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Diastatic Malt Powder (2%):     11.73 g | 0.41 oz | 0.03 lbs | 4.69 tsp | 1.56 tbsp
Total (163.1%):    488.46 g | 17.23 oz | 1.08 lbs | TF = 0.0975


I used about 4-5oz of cheese that I got from a local pizzaria where the owner was speaking very ill of grande (what I was originally trying to buy). He said it's imported but wouldn't tell me the brand b/c he claimed I wouldn't know it. Didn't like it as much as grande.

I used about 5oz of 7-11 with about a 1tsp of oregono, dash of olive oil and some salt and honey.

My oven doesn't get higher than 460ish but I baked on a preheated pizza steal that was about 650 when launched. I might've let it go a little too long b/c I was waiting for the bottom to char

Any comments/thoughts would be appreciated!

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Offline novawaly

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Re: Troubleshooting my Last Bake
« Reply #50 on: November 02, 2019, 10:01:03 PM »
Tried another bake tonight and finally found some Grande in town.

I know everyone said less is more so I used about 7 ounces for a 14 inch pie based on my reading on the forum.

I got a decent amount of pooling and was wondering if even that might be using too much cheese?

My sauce was cooked and only had about 1 tblspoon of olive oil for a 28oz can of tomatoes.

Also, I was wondering, when I see the cheese bubbling in the oven - is that "separation" that I see alluded to on here and if so is that a bad thing? Is that what's causing my pooling?

Thanks as always!

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Troubleshooting my Last Bake
« Reply #51 on: November 02, 2019, 10:20:09 PM »
The forum tends to gravitate towards a modest amount of cheese...but I use 9oz grande for my 14" pies. Link below to pics of one of them.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51924.msg591946#msg591946

A cause of pooling is inconsistent stretch of the dough. The top left of your pic looks thick and bubbly. The grease will slide down from there and settle at the lowest spot.

As to whether separation is bad or not, that's personal preference. I prefer the fat to separate from the cheese a bit and mingle with a thin sauce. It's an extraordinary and decadent flavor IMO. I think your pie looks great.



« Last Edit: November 02, 2019, 10:47:25 PM by hammettjr »
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Offline novawaly

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Re: Troubleshooting my Last Bake
« Reply #52 on: November 03, 2019, 01:06:04 AM »
The forum tends to gravitate towards a modest amount of cheese...but I use 9oz grande for my 14" pies. Link below to pics of one of them.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51924.msg591946#msg591946

A cause of pooling is inconsistent stretch of the dough. The top left of your pic looks thick and bubbly. The grease will slide down from there and settle at the lowest spot.

As to whether separation is bad or not, that's personal preference. I prefer the fat to separate from the cheese a bit and mingle with a thin sauce. It's an extraordinary and decadent flavor IMO. I think your pie looks great.

Ahh ok - It did get caught a little coming off the wheel so that could've caused the issue.

Your point about mingling with a thin sauce is interesting. I went with a cooked sauce and it was rather thick by the end of the cook. Whats your process for the sauce? Just crushed tomatoes out of the can with some seasoning?

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Troubleshooting my Last Bake
« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2019, 07:34:31 AM »
I'll start with the disclaimer again...it depends on your preference. Many members here use crushed tomato and like the consistency.

Through my trial and error, I eventually found that I like a real thin sauce. I was able to achieve this by pushing crushed tomato through a strainer. Currently I'm using whole peeled tomato milled through the fine plate.

The link below has video of a sauce I bought from a pizzeria in Queens, which helped me realize how thin a sauce can be. But, I also like the Bon Appetit video that shows about 25 different pizzerias where you can see the variation in the sauce thinness from the pre-bake images.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51924.msg598020#msg598020

Matt

Offline novawaly

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Re: Troubleshooting my Last Bake
« Reply #54 on: November 07, 2019, 07:11:32 AM »
So I went with the thinner sauce and tried to emulate your melt b/c that's exactly what Im looking for but I cant' seem to correct this pooling issue and it ends up not looking at all like what I'm going for.

I thought I had a pretty decent stretch on this go around but I got even more pooling than I usually get. (There was a small part of dough that was hanging off the baking steel on the right side of the full pie picture so I just had to cut it half way through the bake)

On the slice pictures, am I simply not using enough cheese? ( I think i used about 7.5-8 oz for a 14 inch...didn't see your post until after the bake).

Are there any other factors that could be contributing to the pooling? I know I was having way too much elasticity when I used the food processor to make the dough (probably b/c I ran it for too long). I started kneading by hand and once that issue was corrected I just kept going with ti but now Im wondering if maybe it's not being kneaded long enough now which is making the middle of the pizza too uneven?

I'll try again this weekend and I'll take more pictures of the process along the way and hopefully with a much less blurry camera lol
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 07:13:16 AM by novawaly »

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Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Troubleshooting my Last Bake
« Reply #55 on: November 07, 2019, 02:47:22 PM »
The slice pics don't look all that bad, to me. Maybe still a lil heavy with the sauce?
Love the char.... But you might be coming to hot to get the cheese/sauce meld you are after. I'm still chasing it too!   :chef:
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 02:49:09 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline novawaly

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Re: Troubleshooting my Last Bake
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2019, 11:59:22 AM »
The slice pics don't look all that bad, to me. Maybe still a lil heavy with the sauce?
Love the char.... But you might be coming to hot to get the cheese/sauce meld you are after. I'm still chasing it too!   :chef:

Yea, so Im a new house and messing with the new oven. Top temp is only 500 but it only gets to about 475 in there, I got that char using the convection bake but it seems most people here are going at 500-550 so thought i'd be ok. Maybe i'll try baking without convection on the next one.

And yea looking back prob not enough cheese/too much sauce.

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Troubleshooting my Last Bake
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2019, 08:18:58 PM »
I agree with Bob that the slices dont have an issue. Were those strategically cut to avoid the pools?

At this point I cant say I think there's too much sauce. Do you know how much you use?

I still suspect its inconsistent stretch. I'm finding its very difficult to have an even stretch. Look at how there's a circle near the center of the pizza without any pooling. I suspect it was thicker there. You can try to confirm this when you eat the slices. The pooled part will be thin (and likely soggy).

Below is a link to another pie of mine. If you look closely at the picture of the skin stretched on the screen,  you'll see a large bubble in the center. This resulted in a thin spot. Then look at the melt - looked good except one pool at that spot.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51924.msg598736#msg598736

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Offline novawaly

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Re: Troubleshooting my Last Bake
« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2019, 12:28:19 PM »
I agree with Bob that the slices dont have an issue. Were those strategically cut to avoid the pools?

At this point I cant say I think there's too much sauce. Do you know how much you use?

I prob used about 7ish oz for a 13 inch. I Know i had 5oz measured out but looked light to me so just added a little more.

Quote
I still suspect its inconsistent stretch. I'm finding its very difficult to have an even stretch. Look at how there's a circle near the center of the pizza without any pooling. I suspect it was thicker there. You can try to confirm this when you eat the slices. The pooled part will be thin (and likely soggy).

Below is a link to another pie of mine. If you look closely at the picture of the skin stretched on the screen,  you'll see a large bubble in the center. This resulted in a thin spot. Then look at the melt - looked good except one pool at that spot.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51924.msg598736#msg598736

Yea I just went through the last 10-15 pages of your thread and it made me realize how much webbing I'm having as well. I started out making my dough in a food processor b/c I dont have a stand mixer yet and thought i might've been over mixing b/c I was getting way to much elasticity when trying to open (I was also using ,5% IDY which is now down to .2%). I've switched to hand kneading (which has fixed the elasticity issue) for the last few bakes and I'm usually in the .08 TF on my dough balls. I noticed the webbing that's been consistent throughout most of my bakes but I thought it was due to my thinner TF but now realize it's likely pooling b/c of this thin spots which I'm getting b/c of the inconsistent dough.

I've tried 6 hour RT rise and i've also done a few CF where i leave the dough at RT for an hour, in the fridge for 24 hours but i'd leave it at RT for 3-4 hours before the bake.

I also never reball and I usually only make 1 dough ball at a time but do notice bubbles popping when Im opening. Im curious to see what you found as the main culprit for the webbing bc i suspect that's prob the cause of my pooling.

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