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Author Topic: 70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer  (Read 544 times)

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Offline bronxtrader

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70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer
« on: November 08, 2019, 11:17:18 AM »
500 grams Selezione Casillo 00 pizza flour
70% hydration
.5% dry yeast
4% Sugar
.25% diastatic malt (linter 60)
4% olive oil
2% sea salt

48-72 hour cold proof.

Not sure if anyone one else has this issue. Noting, that higher hydration dough is more difficult to deal with. I use a Kitchen Aid mixer with dough hook. I add dough in 2 stages (about 5 minutes apart) I have an issue with the dough coming together in a dough ball in the mixer. I try to mix on the 1st or second setting for 15-20 minutes. I usually have to add more dough to get the dough to temporarily come together and then I have to take it out of the mixing bowl to hand kneed. Is this normal? Should the dough still come together in the Kitchen Aid or b/c of the hydration one must kneed to a ball by hand?

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: 70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2019, 11:58:27 AM »
Does your KA mixer have a "J" hook or a reverse spiral dough arm? With higher absorption doughs I've found a "J" hook and spiral dough arm to be a difference without a distinction due to the small diameter of the mixing attachments. Still, the reverse spiral dough arm will perform better at developing the gluten than the "J" hook. If it will perform good enough to form a cohesive dough using your flour and dough formula remains to be seen. Keep in mind that high absorption doughs do require longer mixing times than lower absorption doughs do there is a possibility that you are just not mixing the dough long enough to sufficiently develop the gluten allowing for the formation of a dough ball in the mixer. Aside from that, you are adding a lot of malt and also a lot of sugar to the dough formula which is giving you a sweet taste in your finished crust and depending upon your oven and baking conditions, a dark crust color.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: 70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2019, 12:19:20 PM »
Not Tom here... not even a doctor or close to it, LOL... but I've had experience with using Kitchen Aids, large planetarys and spiral mixers. There is NO comparison. My bread recipe (BREAD not pizza dough) is a 69% hydration dough. In my kitchen aid?? It takes 15-17 minutes to come together (a batch of 2 loaves)... in my spiral?? 15-18 loaves in 9 minutes flat. Just an FYI.  :)

Offline TravisNTexas

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Re: 70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2019, 02:26:37 PM »
Does your KA mixer have a "J" hook or a reverse spiral dough arm? ...
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Interesting.  Prior to this post I did not know that a reverse spiral dough arm was even available for the Kitchen Aid.  I would be tempted to give it a try, but the only one I see on the Kitchenaid site has only 2 one star reviews, both due to the coating flaking off.  Nice to know that it exists though and maybe I can find some aftermarket versions of the same arm.  Thanks Doc.
Cheers,
Travis

Offline amolapizza

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Re: 70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2019, 02:30:41 PM »
FYI, it's not for all their mixers, just for some models.
Effeuno P134H (1700W upper element), EGO 500C Thermostat (upper), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Sacorosso, Mutti S. Marzano (DOP), Mutti Pelati Bio.

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Offline TravisNTexas

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Re: 70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2019, 02:45:03 PM »
I actually found the uncoated arm on the kitchenaid site second time I looked. And yes, it looks like it is not available for the 5 qt tilt head mixer, which I am stuck with because it just won't die, not mater how much sausage I grind, pasta I roll, or dough I mix! lol
Cheers,
Travis

Offline Brent-r

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Re: 70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2019, 09:32:29 PM »
I got a stainless one from these guys.

Its as good as it can be without spending a small fortune on a real spiral mixer

https://www.superdoughhook.com/
Brent

Offline bronxtrader

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Re: 70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2019, 12:36:02 PM »
Hi Tom. I use .25% of malt in the recipe...1.25 grams...that is too much in your opinion?

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: 70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2019, 01:37:52 PM »
0.25% of 20L dry malt powder is the recommended dosage for an unmalted flour.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline TravisNTexas

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Re: 70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2019, 03:48:08 PM »
I got a stainless one from these guys.

Its as good as it can be without spending a small fortune on a real spiral mixer

https://www.superdoughhook.com/

Appreciate the link.
Cheers,
Travis

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Offline Brent-r

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Re: 70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2019, 03:55:53 PM »
I am a big fan of stainless so I blew the budget and got the stainless hook.  No regrets.
I just checked the link and clicked on English at the top and saw they now have a video
that reflects my experience.  As the dough comes together it climbs, but then eventually
goes back down.   See the "With some patience"

They responded promptly to my questions.  Shipped in a week or so.  Seems like a good
shop to me.
Brent

Offline enchant

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Re: 70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2019, 04:20:07 PM »
Maybe I simply don't have enough patience, but when I see the dough climbing up the hook, I take care of it immediately.  Either by using a spatula to pull it off while it's running, or by lowering the bowl temporarily.  It seems to me that when the dough is hanging on to the hook like that, nothing productive is happening.
--pat--

Offline Brent-r

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Re: 70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2019, 04:51:18 PM »
I go to cleanup mode while the mixer works away.
I'd love to think I did enough pizzas or bread to justify a Famag mixer
Brent

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: 70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer
« Reply #13 on: November 09, 2019, 09:55:09 PM »
Enchant;
That sounds like the work of the hated "J" hook.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline enchant

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Re: 70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2019, 05:57:33 AM »
No, it's the 600 pro with the spiral hook.  It's NOWHERE near as bad as back when I had the KA classic 4.5 with that J hook, but if I have a large enough dough ball and I leave it to its own devices for a while, it'll often hang on to the dough hook and just ride around like it was on merry-go-round.  I don't have to actively stare at the dough to monitor it.  When it's kneading properly, I can hear the strain of the motor oscillating.  When the dough has climbed onto the hook, the motor keeps a steady pitch, as it would if you turned it on with the bowl empty.
--pat--

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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: 70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2019, 12:06:30 PM »
We normally see that happening with large capacity mixers when trying to mix doughs that are sized too small for the bowl size. The only way to address the issue is to increase the speed of the mixer, this will allow centrifugal force to pull the dough off of the agitator allowing for effective interaction between the agitator and the dough rather than allowing the dough to just go for a free ride around the inside of the bowl while clinging onto the agitator.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline enchant

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Re: 70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2019, 12:15:20 PM »
Ah ok, I'll give that a try.  I thought that speed #2 was the law and the dough police would crash in if I increased that.

Thanks!
--pat--

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: 70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2019, 12:20:38 PM »
I won't tell if you don't tell!  :-D
Somebody once said "drastic times call for drastic measures", you do what ya gotta do sometimes. While you manual might have said not to use anything above speed #2 for bread or pizza dough I bet it didn't reference a 70% absorption dough in the sentence  ;D
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: 70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2019, 11:49:17 AM »
Several years ago, after noting some of the operational deficiencies of my KitchenAid home stand mixer, I decided to try an entirely different approach, one that used all three of the attachments for that mixer. By way of background, my KitchenAid stand mixer is an Ultra Power KSM90 model. It looks very much like the one shown in the first photo below (mine is over 30 years old), and includes a whisk (a.k.a. whip), flat beater (a.k.a. paddle), and dough hook. As for the dough hook, the instruction booklet that came with the mixer simply calls the dough hook a "dough hook". I came to refer to the dough hook as a C-hook because of its shape. The second photo below shows the three attachments for my mixer, along with my handy thin blade spatula dough scraper. I should further note that the instruction booklet says not to use more than 8 cups of flour and that for yeasted doughs one should not exceed speed 2. From the dough formulation that bronxtrader posted, his 500 grams of flour does not exceed 8 cups of a typical white flour.

I described the basic three attachment method along with other measures I took to improve the performance of my mixer in the opening post at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251#msg33251

As noted in Reply 1 following the above post, I made an amount of dough, around 321 grams, for a single 12" pizza. I also used a hydration of 65%. However, I later conducted additional experiments in which I made enough dough for a 14" pizza (about 470 grams of dough), and for a 16" pizza (about 610 grams). I also made an 18" pizza that was a clone of a Sbarro pizza dough and where the dough ball weight was around 697 grams. In that instance, the hydration was only 56%. I also tested a dough with a hydration of 69%, but without any oil.

In all of the above cases, I was able to use the three attachment method. Basically, my approach was to use the whisk until it started to bog down, at which time I cleared off the dough from the whisk as best I could, and then switched to the flat beater and continued with that attachment until the dough started to clear the sides of the bowl. I then went with the C-hook. As one might expect, it took longer to mix and knead the dough for the larger dough ball weights, and for the largest of the dough ball weights I did exceed the stir speed and used a speed above speed 2 as needed to get the desired dough consistency. I found all of this to be an intuitive, natural exercise to which I adjusted quite easily.

I should also note that I initially used a thickness factor (of about 0.10-0.107) that was selected to compensate for the “losses” of dough in the bowl  (“bowl residue”) due to ingredients sticking to containers (including the mixer bowl), implements (mainly the whisk), and so forth. When the dough was done, I used my digital scale to weigh out the desired final dough ball weights. I later found that I could also use a bowl residue compensation of around 2.5% when using the dough calculating tool that I used for all of my experiments.   

I cannot say with certainty if member bronxtrader can use my three-attachment method to mix and knead his dough. I calculated that his dough batch weight is almost 904 grams. My gut seems to say yes but it may be necessary to use higher speeds, as Tom suggested, and maybe to do a bit of intervention to clear dough off of an attachment by hand if necessary, as I did, for example, with the Sbarro clone dough. But the 70% hydration, along with 4% olive oil, should be a plus. In my cases, I typically made only one or maybe two dough balls at a time in my mixer. So, my experience was limited in that respect.

For those who are interested, I used the expanded dough calculating tool at https://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html to set forth everything by baker's percents:

Flour* (100%):
Water (70%):
IDY (0.50%):
Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (4%):
Sugar (4%):
Low Diastatic Malt Powder (60L) (0.25%):
Total (180.75%):
500 g  |  17.64 oz | 1.1 lbs
350 g  |  12.35 oz | 0.77 lbs
2.5 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.83 tsp | 0.28 tbsp
10 g | 0.35 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
20 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.44 tsp | 1.48 tbsp
20 g | 0.71 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.02 tsp | 1.67 tbsp
1.25 g | 0.04 oz
903.75 g | 31.88 oz | 1.99 lbs | TF = N/A
*Selezione Casillo 00 pizza flour
Note: No bowl residue compensation

For the above dough formulation I assumed that the yeast is IDY. I also deleted the volume numbers for the LDM since the diastatic malt conversion data in the dough calculating tool is for a much higher Lintner degrees product. The LDM product was not known to us when Boy Hits Car (Mike) and I created the dough calculating tools.

Peter

Offline HelloJello

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Re: 70% hydration dough not coming together in Kitchen Aide Mixer
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2019, 10:10:26 PM »
Wow.  What a clever bunch of mad scientists we have here.  Not having read Pete's posts, I too threw everything at my KA including three different attachments.  At times, the dough was climbing up the hook and I could see tearing so I stopped the KA for a couple of minutes. It got me to a wet dough that I turned four times x 30 seconds by hand using what I called the lift, swing, turn repeat (I am sure there is a name for this).  At that point there was a viable dough skin and it got balled up.  After a 30 hr cold ferment, the dough ended up over extensible and delicate.  Too delicate for me.

I am resigned to supplementing my KA's efforts with some manual effort.  Besides, you have to work off the calories to eat more pizza!

I looked at the major mechanical kneading methods.  One by far stands out for pizza dough and that is the spiral mixer with a breaker bar and rotating bowl.  I am saving up for a FAMAG Grilletta IM5S.  Until then, I will be happy with 65% hydration.  There are so many more dimensions to experiment with like flours, yeast, SD starters, poolish, biga, time, tomatoes and temperature!

Cheers!


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