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Offline 2ndtimearound

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My WFO Crossroad
« on: November 08, 2019, 03:06:17 PM »
A few years ago I built my second barrel vault WFO. The floor is common firebrick I had no idea what the conductivity is but its probably too high. I over built the cladding and the thermal mass is about 8 inches. So it takes 5-6 hours to saturate the oven. It will hold heat for Days.

The dimensions are 35" wide by 48" deep and the ceiling height is 16.5". This oven sweet spot for pizza is about 850 on the deck and 1100 plus on the dome. It's capable of 950-975 on the deck but my pizza cook too fast and I have to dome them about 20-30 seconds into the cook. So if backed off on the floor heat.  After reading Craig's thread  and Omid's thread I want to cook my NP pizzas at the correct temp.

I'm thinking about installing Saputo Tiles directly over the firebrick. Being that the oven isn't the correct shape for NP I'm torn as to if I should try the Saputo or just build a dedicated  NP pizza oven.

 Has anybody tried this with success?

Regards

Mark



Offline wotavidone

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Re: My WFO Crossroad
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2019, 04:06:31 PM »
If that is a picture of your oven as completed, I would call it the wrong design for pizza.
I suggest you build something more attuned to pizza cooking.

I don't advocate home builders should build a Napoli style oven, a la Acunto Napoli or Stefano Ferrara.
They are fairly complicated structurally, and have very high mass.
They also use insulation materials that are, at best, not as good as modern materials.
I believe that the best way to get one of those is to buy the professionally constructed product.
The high mass means long heat up times.

I reckon build a Pompeii style dome.
They are fully self supporting, more than adequate for Neapolitan pizza at home, and are generally built with less mass and more insulation.
You still need to do careful research.
"Fire Brick" is a very broad church.
I've pondered this for a while.

At work, we use fire bricks that are more than 60% alumina. Not much more than kaolin pressed to shape and fired.
Fantastic for making sure a 1200C slag doesn't dissolve your furnace lining, but I reckon they are crap in pizza ovens.
I know blokes who've built ovens with these and run the floor at 350C or less to avoid burning the crust.

The better bricks for the job are around 25-30% alumina. We see some bricks that look like an ordinary housebrick but have been made with a particularly high alumina clay. Much better for pizza oven temperatures. I'd think these would be referred to as low duty firebricks by laymen.

Take all statements about spalling from thermal cycling with a grain of salt. Yes you need to choose carefully, but I've seen shitloads of spalled super duty firebricks, too.


« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 04:08:24 PM by wotavidone »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: My WFO Crossroad
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2019, 05:37:38 PM »
Given the cost and time difference between laying a saputo deck on top of the existing deck vs building a new oven, I'd definitely try the new deck first. Besides, you can use the saputo tiles in a new oven if you decide later to start over.
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Offline 2ndtimearound

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Re: My WFO Crossroad
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2019, 06:42:03 PM »
If that is a picture of your oven as completed, I would call it the wrong design for pizza.
I suggest you build something more attuned to pizza cooking.

I don't advocate home builders should build a Napoli style oven, a la Acunto Napoli or Stefano Ferrara.
They are fairly complicated structurally, and have very high mass.
They also use insulation materials that are, at best, not as good as modern materials.
I believe that the best way to get one of those is to buy the professionally constructed product.
The high mass means long heat up times.

I reckon build a Pompeii style dome.
They are fully self supporting, more than adequate for Neapolitan pizza at home, and are generally built with less mass and more insulation.
You still need to do careful research.
"Fire Brick" is a very broad church.
I've pondered this for a while.

At work, we use fire bricks that are more than 60% alumina. Not much more than kaolin pressed to shape and fired.
Fantastic for making sure a 1200C slag doesn't dissolve your furnace lining, but I reckon they are crap in pizza ovens.
I know blokes who've built ovens with these and run the floor at 350C or less to avoid burning the crust.

The better bricks for the job are around 25-30% alumina. We see some bricks that look like an ordinary housebrick but have been made with a particularly high alumina clay. Much better for pizza oven temperatures. I'd think these would be referred to as low duty firebricks by laymen.

Take all statements about spalling from thermal cycling with a grain of salt. Yes you need to choose carefully, but I've seen shitloads of spalled super duty firebricks, too.

When I built this oven 5 years ago I really had no knowledge of NP. It was built to cook all kinds of meals in it and it does a great job.  I do remember something about low duty firebrick but i'm not sure what the alumina content was.

Offline 2ndtimearound

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Re: My WFO Crossroad
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2019, 06:43:54 PM »
Given the cost and time difference between laying a saputo deck on top of the existing deck vs building a new oven, I'd definitely try the new deck first. Besides, you can use the saputo tiles in a new oven if you decide later to start over.

Do you see any downside to laying the tiles over the brick floor? Should I be concerned about adding another 1.5" to the mass?

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Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: My WFO Crossroad
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2019, 06:58:46 PM »
The pieces of Saputo Simone (member pizza party) sent me were about 15.5"x12". I don't think it would add that much mass to the oven but it will lower the dome height. May or may not be an issue for you.

I know Omid and Jay (ogwoodfired) both added Saputo to ovens. IIRC, both were looking for the conductivity change and a lower dome so it worked out for them. Not sure about Omid, but Jay has sold that oven (it was on a food truck) and now has an imported oven for his restaurant.

Offline wotavidone

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Re: My WFO Crossroad
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2019, 09:41:30 PM »
When I built this oven 5 years ago I really had no knowledge of NP. It was built to cook all kinds of meals in it and it does a great job.  I do remember something about low duty firebrick but i'm not sure what the alumina content was.
Yes, I'd say that with the design and the amount of mass you mentioned, it would be good for bread, retained heat cooking, slow roasts, etc.
And OK for most styles of pizza.
It is hard to make a one size fits all wood oven - the better it is for one style of cooking the less suited to others it is.
I think a well insulated Pompeii style oven is a reasonable all-rounder.
But get the saputo floor and try it out.
It will change the way your oven behaves when cooking pizza, most likely for the better.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 09:45:57 PM by wotavidone »

Offline 2ndtimearound

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Re: My WFO Crossroad
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2019, 04:56:01 AM »
The pieces of Saputo Simone (member pizza party) sent me were about 15.5"x12". I don't think it would add that much mass to the oven but it will lower the dome height. May or may not be an issue for you.

I know Omid and Jay (ogwoodfired) both added Saputo to ovens. IIRC, both were looking for the conductivity change and a lower dome so it worked out for them. Not sure about Omid, but Jay has sold that oven (it was on a food truck) and now has an imported oven for his restaurant.

Jon how did your hybrid floor come out? Are you satisfied and would you do it again?

Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: My WFO Crossroad
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2019, 08:37:57 AM »
Jon how did your hybrid floor come out? Are you satisfied and would you do it again?
I'm not 100% sure why I haven't jumped down the Neopooitan rabbit hole yet, but I haven't. I think the oven performs very well but I dont have much experience with baking fully on the Saputo side. Most of my pizzas see a little bit of both floors and are closer to a wood oven/New York-ish inspired pizza I ate growing up. With 20/20 hindsight, I think I'd make the oven a little bigger (it's 42, I'd probably go 48), I would have angled the division between the floors so the wider floor in the back was firebrick, and I think I would build the dome with a sand form. Overall, no complaints. The damn thing makes me smile every time I see it.

Offline 2ndtimearound

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Re: My WFO Crossroad
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2019, 09:05:15 AM »
Quote
The damn thing makes me smile every time I see it.

Same here.
As we speak I'm firing my up today. Its 20 degrees here in MA and I got 12 dough balls proofing for tomorrow.

How high did you make for dome?

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Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: My WFO Crossroad
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2019, 09:27:55 AM »
I tried to make it 16 inches but I think it is a little higher at the center.

Offline Yael

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Re: My WFO Crossroad
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2019, 08:35:53 PM »
Being in China, I'm used to adapt myself to "bad" or non-adapted equipment (and raw material as well..) and make the best out of it, or at least try. Flours, ovens, small tables... I was never bored with it as it made me learn a lot! However, I agree that when you've been using this bad equipment at its 110%, you want to go to the next stage.
With your oven, I would try a new floor if this is the main problem, but I would also close the front top (height of the door: 67% of the total height), this way you can keep some heat inside. I think once these 2 things are changed, your bake will not have any special problem!
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline 2ndtimearound

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Re: My WFO Crossroad
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2019, 06:28:12 AM »
Being in China, I'm used to adapt myself to "bad" or non-adapted equipment (and raw material as well..) and make the best out of it, or at least try. Flours, ovens, small tables... I was never bored with it as it made me learn a lot! However, I agree that when you've been using this bad equipment at its 110%, you want to go to the next stage.
With your oven, I would try a new floor if this is the main problem, but I would also close the front top (height of the door: 67% of the total height), this way you can keep some heat inside. I think once these 2 things are changed, your bake will not have any special problem!

My oven has been in service since 2016. That's just a photo from when I was building it to show the barrel shape. My door is 10 inches high.

Offline Yael

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Re: My WFO Crossroad
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2019, 08:55:55 AM »
Oh I see! Nice!
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: My WFO Crossroad
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2019, 09:21:07 AM »
That's beautiful.

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Offline 2ndtimearound

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Re: My WFO Crossroad
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2019, 09:24:39 AM »

Offline 2ndtimearound

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Re: My WFO Crossroad
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2019, 09:25:00 AM »

Offline wotavidone

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Re: My WFO Crossroad
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2019, 05:00:09 PM »
My oven has been in service since 2016. That's just a photo from when I was building it to show the barrel shape. My door is 10 inches high.
Your oven is up to scratch - the high mass will always require lots of firewood, but the dimensions are right and you should have no trouble reaching Neapolitan temps.
Saputo floor looks the way to go.

Offline 2ndtimearound

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Re: My WFO Crossroad
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2019, 04:59:21 PM »
Fedex get showed up with my 10 Saputo stones. Time to lay a new floor in my WFO. I guess I'll lay them in on a thin bed of fireclay and sand.  Can't say enough for the fast and friendly service I received form Simone at PP.




Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: My WFO Crossroad
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2019, 08:17:53 PM »
It's crazy fast, right? If you have to do any cuts, I used an angle grinder and it worked well. But definitely outside and with a dust mask. It was messy. I like to think my lawn is the only one in the state with Saputo dust mixed in.

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