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Author Topic: Doughs with Ischia starter biga  (Read 2075 times)

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Offline norma427

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Doughs with Ischia starter biga
« on: November 20, 2019, 07:18:40 AM »
Found some of John Stevenson's pizzas and method for making his doughs with a Ischia biga interesting on Artisan Pizza on Facebook.  Asked John if he would share some of his methods for making doughs with a Ischia biga. 

The one photo John posted sure looked good in the crumb shot.  He makes other doughs with the Ischia biga too. 

These are answers John gave me on trying to use a Ischia big for pizzas.  Am going to give some a shot, but seems that cold fermenting dough with a Ischia biga might not be the best way to go about this, but seems John has good results.  John did use the Occident flour for this pizza but uses other flours, or mixed ones for some of his other pizzas with a Ishcia biga.

John Stephenson  Norma Knepp, 10% biga, 2.5% salt, 62% hydration on average for a standard batch. 24-72hr cold retard. A good hour auto on the flour and water before mixing and a minimum of 2 hrs bulk rise before I ball and refrigerate. I have an ischia starter in my biga that I constantly have fed for years now thatís very strong and aids in my structure and flavor. ? I like to warm my preferment up for a couple hours at room temp before mixing as well. Seems to make a small notable difference In waking the yeast this time of year especially when humidty and temperature are down where I live...   Norma Knepp, dependent on time and relevant humidity and temperature I do get a good flavor. This is why I prefer a biga for flavor and cellular structure personally. I always add salt toward the end of my mix. Sometimes if I need a fast batch I will add additional commercial yeast to the pre-existing recipe after an autolyse to get a good lift in my bake. At times Iíll add my biga to the water with flour and allow it to rest so fermentation takes place and my yeasts canít populate and the flour has time to absorb all of the water and gain elasticity. I have also achieve great results by allowing the biga to waken from a cold retard by leaving it out for an hour or so and throwing blobs if it into the mix as you combine your ingredients. I change my methods slightly frequently all dependent on this as well as how healthful or strong my biga is at any given day.  Norma Knepp, Iím always on the hunt for something new and better, kA is always a wonderful consistent product you can find nearly anywhere, ardent mills occident Is what I used in this particular batch, I really enjoy some giustoís products for competition, caputo has made some products Iím a fan of, all trumps, harvest king... they all have there own characteristics and traits. I just work with them until I find a sweet spot. Sometimes I used a mix. Iíve found that adding vital wheat helps me achieve better lift in the winter months at times or when Iím using whole grains, sometimes a little dark rye and even sprouted wheat will help the enzymes take off a little faster for me in my dough. However to much sprouted wheat can rise to a peak and then collapse but it still makes a fantastic dough. Experiment... Iím a big fan of buying the oddest thing I can find on a shelf and making a meal of it on a frequent basis. Experiment endlessly until you find what works best for you and then master it.  Norma Knepp, occident is designed for pan pizzas. It is unbleached but I believe it maybe enriched??? Itís difficult to create large cells with but not impossible. Iíve had great results in experimentation with it. As for vital wheat raising the proteins just helps entrap gassing. Itís a juggle between time and temperature and or manipulating the dough by raising the proteins and hydration slightly to achieve lift.

Took a few days to get my Ischia starter active again, but it is alive again, after being in the fridge for about 6 months.   :-D

Any help or opinions from forum members?

Norma

« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 07:20:46 AM by norma427 »

Offline classicalthunder

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Re: Doughs with Ischia starter biga
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2019, 02:17:48 PM »
oooh, great timing, I just put the Ischa starter from Sourdo.com on my christmas wishlist!

when you say 'Biga' do you mean the active starter?  so with 10% Biga, I should add 50g starter to a 500g batch of flour?

I'm excited to try it and am glad to see someone using it in a non-Neapolitan quick fire type of way...

« Last Edit: November 20, 2019, 02:30:09 PM by classicalthunder »

Offline norma427

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Re: Doughs with Ischia starter biga
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2019, 09:50:26 PM »
oooh, great timing, I just put the Ischa starter from Sourdo.com on my christmas wishlist!

when you say 'Biga' do you mean the active starter?  so with 10% Biga, I should add 50g starter to a 500g batch of flour?

I'm excited to try it and am glad to see someone using it in a non-Neapolitan quick fire type of way...

classicalthunder,

Glad you put the Ischia starter on your Christmas wish list!  :)

Yes the biga is a active starter, but thicker than most starters.

This is a definition of a biga in the Pizza Glossary.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_b

Norma
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 07:49:10 AM by norma427 »

Offline norma427

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Re: Doughs with Ischia starter biga
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2019, 05:14:24 PM »
Guess am ready to test.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Doughs with Ischia starter biga
« Reply #4 on: November 24, 2019, 09:28:55 AM »
The Ischia biga dough was mixed last evening.  Never had so many problems mixing a dough, and so long of a time to mix doughs.  Photos of last night and this morning.  The dough balls were put into the refrigerator.

Norma
« Last Edit: November 24, 2019, 09:30:33 AM by norma427 »

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Offline norma427

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Re: Doughs with Ischia starter biga
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2019, 11:25:08 AM »
Really don't understand why, but it appears the doughs are fermenting in the fridge only.  Doughs have been at market since yesterday.  Appears there are some black specks on the of the dough balls.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Doughs with Ischia starter biga
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2019, 11:26:27 AM »
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Doughs with Ischia starter biga
« Reply #7 on: November 26, 2019, 09:02:16 PM »
Sometimes new things work out.  Can anyone explain how a sourdough can be cold fermented and work out?

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Doughs with Ischia starter biga
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2019, 09:06:17 PM »
There are a bunch of other photos.  Everyone that tried both of those Ischia biga pizzas loved them.  The above photos were taken by an Italian man that buys pizzas every week from Harrisburg.  His sister owns a pizzeria in NJ.  He said the pizza was the best he ever had.  At least that made me feel good.

Norma

Offline parallei

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Re: Doughs with Ischia starter biga
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2019, 09:38:10 PM »
Sometimes new things work out.  Can anyone explain how a sourdough can be cold fermented and work out?

Norma

That's a great looking pie, Norma. :chef:

The only time I've CF'd (like 36F) SD doughs is overnight for breads.  It seems to work fine, just a bit slower I guess.  Now I'll have to try it with pizza dough.....

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Offline norma427

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Re: Doughs with Ischia starter biga
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2019, 10:00:01 PM »
That's a great looking pie, Norma. :chef:

The only time I've CF'd (like 36F) SD doughs is overnight for breads.  It seems to work fine, just a bit slower I guess.  Now I'll have to try it with pizza dough.....

Thanks Paul!

Glad to hear your breads SD doughs worked overnight in a cooler fridge.  When I tried the Ischia in pizza doughs before, they didn't seem to rise much.

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Doughs with Ischia starter biga
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2019, 10:05:22 PM »
Two photos of the one Ischia biga dough ball warming up today.  Don't know if it can be seen but the top if the dough ball looked the same, while the lower part had tiny bubbles going up.  Both dough balls were probably the easiest I have opened.

Norma

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Doughs with Ischia starter biga
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2019, 10:13:28 PM »
Norma,

Several years ago, even before you became a member of the forum, I played around with natural preferments in a cold fermentation environment, using the basic Tom Lehmann NY style dough formulation. One of my experiments that produced a very good pizza using Tomís basic NY style dough formulation is described in detail at Reply 151 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg11774#msg11774

Some time later, also before you became a member of the forum, I decided to see if I could make a naturally leavened Papa Johnís clone dough, also in a cold fermentation environment. I described that effort in detail in Reply 38 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg60892#msg60892

As you will note from Reply 38, although I was pleased with the results, the PJ clone dough needed a long room temperature assist to get it to the proper condition to make the pizza. Maybe it was because my Ischia culture was a bit under the weather but the concept still seemed viable.

BTW, your recent pizza looks great. Do you plan to try to add an Ischia cold fermented dough to your repertoire at market?

Peter




Offline norma427

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Re: Doughs with Ischia starter biga
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2019, 10:58:28 PM »
Norma,

Several years ago, even before you became a member of the forum, I played around with natural preferments in a cold fermentation environment, using the basic Tom Lehmann NY style dough formulation. One of my experiments that produced a very good pizza using Tomís basic NY style dough formulation is described in detail at Reply 151 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg11774#msg11774

Some time later, also before you became a member of the forum, I decided to see if I could make a naturally leavened Papa Johnís clone dough, also in a cold fermentation environment. I described that effort in detail in Reply 38 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg60892#msg60892

As you will note from Reply 38, although I was pleased with the results, the PJ clone dough needed a long room temperature assist to get it to the proper condition to make the pizza. Maybe it was because my Ischia culture was a bit under the weather but the concept still seemed viable.

BTW, your recent pizza looks great. Do you plan to try to add an Ischia cold fermented dough to your repertoire at market?

Peter

Peter,

Interesting that you achieved a significant step forward in the evolution of the Lehmann NY style dough with a high quality autolyse-based natural preferment, and the final pizza.  I think Bakerboy was right that you need pretty much natural based preferment to achieve a satisfactory fermentation in a retarded dough.  Wonder why the 10%  biga natural preferment worked for me.  Maybe because it was a biga?  Not even sure it was a biga, and had to add more flour to my mix.  Also added oil. 

Also interesting that you used the preferment Ischia at 25% of the weight of the formula flour cause you didn't think it was as virile as your other Ischia preferments.  Glad you got the classic sourdough crumb!  ;D You did achieve very good results!  Did note that your PJ clone dough needed a long room temperature temperature assist to get it to the proper condition to make a pizza. 

Thanks about my pizza.  I would like to add an Ischia cold fermented dough instead of my regular dough at market, but am not sure it would work.

Was offered a job from that pizza I made by the Italian man.  He wants me to travel to Harrisburg and him and I open a pizzeria.  :-D

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Doughs with Ischia starter biga
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2019, 11:34:15 PM »
Norma

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Offline norma427

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Re: Doughs with Ischia starter biga
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2019, 07:14:20 AM »
Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Doughs with Ischia starter biga
« Reply #16 on: November 29, 2019, 06:24:44 AM »
John Stephenson put a photo of his ischia biga on Facebook yesterday.  This is the photo.  It sure doesn't look like my ischia biga.  I asked what John is feeding it and another person said it didn't look like any biga he has ever seen.  :o John answered, he is feeding his ischia big with KABF organic, dark rye, and a scant of sprouted flour.  Guess I have to go back to the drawing board on how I was feeding the ischia starter.  Didn't know their was a KABF Organic, and maybe didn't look hard enough, but see on the web there is.  https://shop.kingarthurflour.com/items/king-arthur-organic-bread-flour-5-lb

Fed my ischia starter more flour/KA All purpose flour in the last few days, but it sure doesn't look like John's.  Will KABF organic, along with some dark rye, and a little sprouted flour make a biga that looks like that?  I went down that rabbit hole of trying to make sprouted flour a couple of times and the first time it sure was stinky sometimes.  :-D

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg145701#msg145701

 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14554.msg145981#msg145981

 Would using what John does make that much difference in how a ischia biga looks, besides the color?

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Doughs with Ischia starter biga
« Reply #17 on: November 29, 2019, 06:30:34 AM »
How my Ischia starter looks this morning.

Norma

Offline HansB

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Re: Doughs with Ischia starter biga
« Reply #18 on: November 29, 2019, 07:29:21 AM »
IMO using KA Organic wonít make that big of a difference but the rye probably will.
Hans

Offline ButteredPizza

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Re: Doughs with Ischia starter biga
« Reply #19 on: November 29, 2019, 07:37:34 AM »
Didn't know their was a KABF Organic, and maybe didn't look hard enough, but see on the web there is.  https://shop.kingarthurflour.com/items/king-arthur-organic-bread-flour-5-lb
You might check Whole Foods if you have one nearby, they seem to be carrying this now (mine does, $8.99 for the 5lb bag).  It's crazy expensive :(  I use it occasionally for bread when I feel like splurging, and it makes for a nice crumb and taste - never thought about using it for pizza!

Quote
Fed my ischia starter more flour/KA All purpose flour in the last few days, but it sure doesn't look like John's.  Will KABF organic, along with some dark rye, and a little sprouted flour make a biga that looks like that? 
I do not have an ischia starter, but the differences between the two appear to be hydration levels. John's looks like ~60-80% while yours looks closer to 100%.  I think the whole grains (e.g. the rye) can also contribute, they can soak up more water so it'll be "drier" looking.

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