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Offline chefdad

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Baking powder dough?
« on: November 21, 2019, 05:31:18 PM »
Ran into this recipe on internet using baking powder instead of yeast anyone tried this?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Baking powder dough?
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2019, 06:41:40 PM »
chefdad,

Over the years, much has been written on the forum about the use of chemical leavening systems in pizza dough. One form of such a chemical leavening system is baking powder, which typically includes an alkaline ingredient like baking soda and one or two acid components. In this context, a while back I took a stab at coming up with a definition of chemical leavening systems in the forum's Pizza Glossary at https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_c.

Offhand, I don't recall a discussion of the use of baking powder for a Chicago style pizza but I do not see any reason why chemical leavening systems cannot be used for that style. One example that I do recall is one that uses yogurt and self rising flour. Self rising flour typically uses baking soda and one or two acid components. The thread that was devoted to this case is at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34568.msg343852#msg343852

Baking powders tend to be used to make pizza pre-mix blends. You can see several examples in the post at Reply 23 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13686.msg137206#msg137206

You will note from Reply 23 that the pre-mix products all contain yeast as well as baking powders. That helps insure that the doughs will rise even if something happens to the yeast that renders them inoperative or not fully effective, or they simply are not activated for some reason. The yeasts also improve fermentation of the doughs and create flavor profiles that can't be achieved with baking powders alone.

If you are interested in learning more about chemical leavening systems, you might take a look at Reply 4 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45359.msg454206#msg454206

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Baking powder dough?
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2019, 06:51:27 PM »
Ran into this recipe on internet using baking powder instead of yeast anyone tried this?

chefdad,

Not sure about only using baking powder, but Peter used only baking soda at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=5173.msg43956#msg43956 

Think I did try self rising flour with Greek yogurt.  Some of my posts are in this thread.  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34568.0   Also make different Sukie pizzas with Peter “goody bag” and other mixes. One is at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13686.msg149740#msg149740

Probably tried other crazy things to with pizza dough.  :-D

Norma

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Re: Baking powder dough?
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2019, 06:53:53 PM »
chefdad,

After my last post, I took a closer look at the recipe you posted. What wasn't clear to me is whether the recipe is for a Chicago thin style pizza or maybe something that is along the lines of tortillas. I mention this because one cup of flour will not produce a lot of dough, perhaps not enough to make two pizzas of a standard size. None of this takes away from what I posted.

Peter

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Re: Baking powder dough?
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2019, 07:00:35 PM »
Norma,

Thanks for refreshing my memory. The thread you cited taught me a lot about using baking soda for a pizza dough.

I did recall your Sukie pizzas you made. But the photos that gave me a big laugh are in Replies 342-343 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13686.msg149923#msg149923  :-D

Peter

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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Baking powder dough?
« Reply #5 on: November 21, 2019, 07:34:41 PM »
One can make a thin crust Chicago style pizza dough.... without any leavening ingredient what so ever.  ;)

It's a same day dough and the crust, for the most part, is mearly the delivery vehicle for the great stuff that is on top of the dough. 😎
« Last Edit: November 21, 2019, 08:21:02 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline nick57

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Re: Baking powder dough?
« Reply #6 on: November 21, 2019, 07:56:37 PM »
 One of my early cracker crust experiments used only baking powder. I got some rise but no flavor. Like Bob said, it's a good crispy base for the toppings.

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Re: Baking powder dough?
« Reply #7 on: November 21, 2019, 09:31:19 PM »
One of the biggest problems with using baking powder along with yeast is that the soda portion of the baking powder (BP) is neutralized by the acids formed during the fermentation period which results in the acid component being left without any alkali (soda) to work with. This results in a lighter finished crust color and depending upon the food acid used in the baking powder a "different" finished crust taste. In commercial practice a combination of both yeast and chemical leavening can/are used (examples include DiGiorno Frozen Pizza as well as many popular take and bake pizzas) BUT plain BP is not used, instead a coated/encapsulated chemical leavening is used. The trade name for this product is "Wrise" manufactured by Wright Enrichment Company. For home pizza makers you can make a version of this product by using Calumet Brand baking powder and regular Crisco. Use 2% BP and an equal weight of Crisco and work together VERY WELL in a small bowl using a table fork. The fat encapsulates the soda portion of the BP and prevents it from going into solution thus preventing it from reacting with the acids formed during fermentation until the fat is melted in the oven at which time it reacts to give enhanced oven spring. I've got a number of dough formulas for these combination leavened doughs posted in the RECIPE BANK at the PMQ web site <www.pmq.com>.
Flavor wise, 100% chemical/BP leavened crusts leave a whole lot to be desired flavor wise, reminds me of the old Chef Boyardee Pizza kits that we had when I was a kid back in the early 50's, empty the bag of dough mix into a bowl, add warm water and mix, allow to rest a few minutes, spread onto a cookie sheet, add the sauce and cheese and into the oven it went.
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Re: Baking powder dough?
« Reply #8 on: November 21, 2019, 10:37:39 PM »
Tom,

Your post is a trip down memory lane. Over the years, I would read your posts and articles at the PMQ Think Tank and elsewhere where you discussed the Wrise product and I used that information to inform the members of the forum and to also use it to make my versions of “take and bake” pizzas. I even remember your Q&A on the subject matter of your last post in a PMQ “In Lehman’s Terms” article that disappeared but which I found archived at the Wayback Machine at:

https://web.archive.org/web/20110404171322/http://pmq.com/mag/2005september-october/lehmann.php

Peter

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Re: Baking powder dough?
« Reply #9 on: November 21, 2019, 11:37:06 PM »
That article sure brings back memories.  :)
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Offline chefdad

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Re: Baking powder dough?
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2019, 06:03:15 AM »
In culinary school we had formula -air temp + flour temp determined the temp of water for hydration.

Offline norma427

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Re: Baking powder dough?
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2019, 07:37:35 AM »
Norma,

Thanks for refreshing my memory. The thread you cited taught me a lot about using baking soda for a pizza dough.

I did recall your Sukie pizzas you made. But the photos that gave me a big laugh are in Replies 342-343 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13686.msg149923#msg149923  :-D

Peter

Peter,

Glad that pizza gave you a laugh.  Those little Sukie pigs are waiting for more action.  :-D

I recall Frank opening those self rising flour and Fage doughs and being amazed how well he opened them, and the resulting pizzas. One at Reply 40 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34568.msg344071#msg344071 Frank and I thought it might turn out like a cracker crust, but it didn't.  Should have been a “Sukie” pizza.  :) Wish I still had time to play around with experiments more.  Soon might be getting a dandy little pizza oven though for my shred.  If I do will call the shed a “Pizza She Shed” and then might make time to do more experiments.  Maybe I will even try some pizza like Tom posted at Reply 7 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=59965.msg601377#msg601377 for a frozen pizza for customers.

Norma

Offline Garvey

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Re: Baking powder dough?
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2019, 08:05:35 AM »
OP, is there a problem you're trying to solve?  Real question.  Is yeast not available, you don't like the flavors, etc.?

Cool discussion, but I was just wondering if this is in response to some kind of problem you're having in trying to obtain a particular goal or if it's just fun and curiosity.

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Re: Baking powder dough?
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2019, 02:38:43 PM »
Norma,

Much like you, I have always gotten the greatest satisfaction and had the most fun conducting pizza experiments, and especially those that depart from the norm of just mixing a bunch of ingredients together from a recipe. There has to be some unknowns and some mysteries in the process. In that vein, and after reading Tom's post at Reply 7 in which he mentioned the Wrise ingredient and the Chef Boyardee pizza kits of his youth, I couldn't help but remember some experiments I did using the boxed Jiffy Mix product where I tried to modify the Jiffy Mix premix to create a dough that could be cold fermented for a day. I described what I did to achieve that result in the thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4652.msg38349#msg38349

I cite the above thread because the Jiffy Mix product at the time of my experiments included a chemical leavening system (baking soda, sodium aluminum phosphate) that is similar to the Wrise product, and especially so when the fat (animal shortening--lard & partially hydrogenated lard) in the Jiffy Mix is taken into account. As I understand it, the Wrise product currently uses a non-trans fat palm lipid for encapsulation purposes as Tom discussed in Reply 7.

Tom also discussed how the chemical leavening system used in Chef Boyardee mix left a whole lot to be desired flavor wise. That concern is what largely prompted me to try to make a one-day cold fermentation version of the Jiffy Mix product.

As I noted in the above thread, my first attempt at the modified Jiffy Mix pizza turned out better than I had expected although the crust was perhaps something between a yeasted crust and a biscuit crust. Later, I conducted another experiment in which I tried to reduce the biscuit component of the crust. As it turned out, I was able to do that but I actually preferred the earlier version with a biscuit-like component. In any event, I learned a lot from the experiments, much as I did when you and I ran all kinds of tests and experiments and did research in the course of the thread you cited.

Peter

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Re: Baking powder dough?
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2019, 04:04:17 PM »
Peter;
It's interesting to note that the reason why I mentioned the Calumet brand baking powder is because it is one of the few that is based on soda and SALP (sodium aluminum phosphate). This is important as SALP has a slower reaction rate than the other food acids so it functions more like yeast in reaction rate rather than reacting very fast as many of the two stage baking powders do. It's also interesting to note that the residual acid component has a significant impact on finished crust flavor, SALP imparts what we call a "biscuit" like flavor (due to the use of SALP based leavening systems in biscuit mixes) that's why we associate the flavor with biscuits, then there is GDL (glucano delts lactone), the residual GDL imparts a decided sweet taste to the crust, and SAPP (sodium acid pyro phosphate) is the leavening system of choice for use in cake donuts, in fact the flavor of a cake donut is that of SAPP. The next time you eat a cake donut run your tongue across the back of your teeth and you'll feel a roughness, this is a phosphate coating from the SAPP. Due to health concerns in Europe SALP is not on the approved food ingredient listing (it doesn't have an "E" number), so CAPP (calcium acid pyro phosphate) is used as a replacement. Aluminum is the issue, at one time aluminum was thought to be associated with Alzheimer's Disease but that was disproved many years ago. CAPP has not been widely available in the U.S. due to the availability of SALP and since they both perform in a similar manner why have two products? We are beginning to see more applications of CAPP though in specialized products where the biscuit like flavor is not desired so if you happen to see CAPP in the ingredient declaration this is the reason. We use SALP in the WRISE product because the biscuit like flavor imparted by any residual SALP is the least offensive in a yeast leavened product. With that said, some refrigerated doughs are made using GDL with the reason being the superior stability offered by the GDL over all of the other food acids. When you have a dough system that is 100% chemically leavened and the chemical leavening system is based on GDL and soda it is incredibly stable until it goes into the oven, the biggest down side to GDL is its low neutralizing value so you need to use significantly more of it to get the same performance you get from SALP and SAPP which in the end means a higher formula cost. In short, when you see GDL being used there has to be a very good reason for using it.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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Re: Baking powder dough?
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2019, 05:18:05 PM »
Tom,

As usual, thank you for the detailed explanation of all of the factors that go into making doughs with chemical leavening systems.

As it so happens, I was aware of the Calumet product and mentioned it, along with the WRISE product, in a post at Reply 1 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1116.msg9932#msg9932

And after tracking down the Calumet post, I edited it to include links to two dough recipes at the PMQ Recipe Bank that call for coated leavening. Both of the recipes also call for yeast.

Before editing the post, I checked the Wayback Machine to see if the recipes were archived there. They were not. Over the years, PMQ has changed its online format and content and that is most likely the reason much of its informational content is not archived, much as its early Think Tank forum content was not archived when PMQ changed its forum software. Thankfully, however, a lot of your articles for PMQ are archived at the Wayback Machine even though the originals are no longer kept by PMQ.

I also checked the Wright telephone number mentioned in my post and it is still active. However, I do not know if Azarel Nieves is still with the Wright Group. My post was in 2005 so he may have moved on.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Baking powder dough?
« Reply #16 on: November 23, 2019, 08:16:29 AM »
Norma,

Much like you, I have always gotten the greatest satisfaction and had the most fun conducting pizza experiments, and especially those that depart from the norm of just mixing a bunch of ingredients together from a recipe. There has to be some unknowns and some mysteries in the process. In that vein, and after reading Tom's post at Reply 7 in which he mentioned the Wrise ingredient and the Chef Boyardee pizza kits of his youth, I couldn't help but remember some experiments I did using the boxed Jiffy Mix product where I tried to modify the Jiffy Mix premix to create a dough that could be cold fermented for a day. I described what I did to achieve that result in the thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4652.msg38349#msg38349

I cite the above thread because the Jiffy Mix product at the time of my experiments included a chemical leavening system (baking soda, sodium aluminum phosphate) that is similar to the Wrise product, and especially so when the fat (animal shortening--lard & partially hydrogenated lard) in the Jiffy Mix is taken into account. As I understand it, the Wrise product currently uses a non-trans fat palm lipid for encapsulation purposes as Tom discussed in Reply 7.

Tom also discussed how the chemical leavening system used in Chef Boyardee mix left a whole lot to be desired flavor wise. That concern is what largely prompted me to try to make a one-day cold fermentation version of the Jiffy Mix product.

As I noted in the above thread, my first attempt at the modified Jiffy Mix pizza turned out better than I had expected although the crust was perhaps something between a yeasted crust and a biscuit crust. Later, I conducted another experiment in which I tried to reduce the biscuit component of the crust. As it turned out, I was able to do that but I actually preferred the earlier version with a biscuit-like component. In any event, I learned a lot from the experiments, much as I did when you and I ran all kinds of tests and experiments and did research in the course of the thread you cited.

Peter

Peter,

Great job on making a pizza with that Jiffy mix.  :)  Don't think I read that thread before.

Norma

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