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Offline sjaredj

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Correlation between hydration and cook temp and time
« on: November 24, 2019, 11:03:49 AM »
I recently got my hands on a older Baker's Pride MO2T oven and am modifying my recipe from the one I use on a BS.  I also found access to a Restaurant Depot membership so I am changing from KABF to All Trumps and trying to zero in on hydration.  I want to try a slightly higher hydration to see how it performs.  I want to compare what I expect to happen with the results I get to get a better understanding.  My question is...how does hydration level affect launch temp and cook time?  With more hydration should I try to launch pizza's at a highter temp, say 650 degrees, for a shorter time or would I be better off dropping the temp down to 550 and cook longer.  I have been playing in the 64-65% hydration range but just made some dough at 67%.  Looking for some feedback.  By the way I am in Utah where it's cold and dry with a furnace running to dry the air out even more.  Not sure how much that will affect things but thought I would through that bit of info out there too.

Offline Buck47

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Re: Correlation between hydration and cook temp and time
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2019, 01:19:49 PM »
I have the newer version of the same oven.  They bake a fine pizza.  Takes an hour to heat up the stones to the 550 F temp I use.

What I did as I transitioned to the new oven was to stay with exact same recipe I had used i my home oven using a steel plate and noted the difference in how the two ovens baked the same pizza.  I bet I baked a good 6 or 8 pies in the Bakers Pride before I made any changes to the recipe.

When I did make changes I only changed one item in the recipe. Then once again baked 6 to 8 more pies to make sure I was getting a constant result.

The Trumps flour alone would take me several bakes to start to become comfortable with it's characteristics. And I'm using a 12 1/2 percent protein bromated flour.

For me changing a recipe is pointless until have the measuring, mixing, scaling/balling, control of constant refrig. temps, cross stacking, tempering, opening procedure, consistency with toppings, control of room and oven temp --- exactly the same each and every time I make pizza. 

Changing a recipe is about the last change I make.

But that's just me. It's just the method that has worked for me.   

I do wish you the best with the new oven.  I'm sure you will enjoy it as much as I have mine.

Regards: john

PS: One big difference I found when I started baking in this style oven was how hot it was on the first pie.  First pizza always cooked to fast. After number three pie the oven stones would settle into a nice 6 min bake on a 12 inch pie.
To compensate I use a screen on the first one or two pies on each stone. Then I can launch directly off the wood peel to the stone.  Hope this tip helps.

 



 
« Last Edit: November 25, 2019, 06:43:22 AM by Buck47 »
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Offline Yael

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Re: Correlation between hydration and cook temp and time
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2019, 06:48:06 PM »
Well, as a theoretical rule, the lower (and longer) the baking T°, the higher the hydration. But as John said above, I would keep the very same procedure first, in order to the see difference(s) with my previous results. Then you can start to change things one by one.
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline scott r

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Re: Correlation between hydration and cook temp and time
« Reply #3 on: November 24, 2019, 10:30:43 PM »
SICK setup John, way to go.  Every home kitchen should have a pizza wing like this!

Offline sjaredj

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Re: Correlation between hydration and cook temp and time
« Reply #4 on: November 25, 2019, 09:10:38 AM »
Thanks for the info Buck.  I followed your progress in your thread https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=56409.msg567265#msg567265 and was very impressed with the photos of pizza and the "man cave" pizza kitchen.  Very jealous!

I know I should only change a one thing at at time in order to zero in on things, but I got impatient after a few failures  ;D

I can report back that my 67% hydration cooked at a slightly higher temp gave me some really good results.  I had more of the oven spring and air pockets in my cornice (much like Buck's photos from his other thread I pasted above). 

Yael - thanks for the hard fast rule.  It makes total sense!

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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Correlation between hydration and cook temp and time
« Reply #5 on: November 25, 2019, 10:16:31 AM »
Generally speaking, higher dough absorption performs better with higher baking temperatures and there comes a point where it's essentially mandatory or the dough will collapse in the oven when it should be experiencing oven spring. Lower absorption doughs are usually best baked at lower oven temperatures. Dealing with deck ovens a lower temperature means 450 to 525F and a higher temperature means 550 to 650F and more. Many deck ovens will not reach a sufficiently high temperature to effectively handle the truly high absorption doughs which will require a baking temperature of 700 to 900F. As the dough absorption rises the dough becomes softer and more extensible so it rises faster and a little sooner during the oven spring stage of baking, this is why you are seeing a more open cell structure, you should also get a more tender eating crust which is more crispy too. As opposed to many home ovens, any commercial oven should bake a better pizza at comparable temperatures due to the greater heat/temperature recovery of the commercial oven resulting in the pizza baking at a more constant temperature than non-commercial ovens which in many cases lack decent heat recovery, this is especially evident when baking multiple pizzas back to back.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Correlation between hydration and cook temp and time
« Reply #6 on: November 25, 2019, 03:18:22 PM »
Isn't this a again a question of it depends?

It seems logical that a higher absorption dough would need a longer cooking time to evaporate sufficient water thus needing a lower cooking temperature, otherwise risking the dough being insufficiently cooked?
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Correlation between hydration and cook temp and time
« Reply #7 on: November 25, 2019, 04:06:46 PM »
Nope, doesn't work that way, the lower the absorption the denser the dough is during baking due to restricted oven spring so it doesn't bake out as well hence requiring a longer baking time at a lower temperature.
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Correlation between hydration and cook temp and time
« Reply #8 on: November 26, 2019, 04:46:39 AM »
That's super interesting!

I'll have to think about the implications of that for awhile.. :D

Thanks!
Jack,

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Offline sjaredj

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Re: Correlation between hydration and cook temp and time
« Reply #9 on: November 26, 2019, 08:11:48 AM »
Generally speaking, higher dough absorption performs better with higher baking temperatures and there comes a point where it's essentially mandatory or the dough will collapse in the oven when it should be experiencing oven spring. Lower absorption doughs are usually best baked at lower oven temperatures. Dealing with deck ovens a lower temperature means 450 to 525F and a higher temperature means 550 to 650F and more. Many deck ovens will not reach a sufficiently high temperature to effectively handle the truly high absorption doughs which will require a baking temperature of 700 to 900F. As the dough absorption rises the dough becomes softer and more extensible so it rises faster and a little sooner during the oven spring stage of baking, this is why you are seeing a more open cell structure, you should also get a more tender eating crust which is more crispy too. As opposed to many home ovens, any commercial oven should bake a better pizza at comparable temperatures due to the greater heat/temperature recovery of the commercial oven resulting in the pizza baking at a more constant temperature than non-commercial ovens which in many cases lack decent heat recovery, this is especially evident when baking multiple pizzas back to back.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Tom

This is exactly the type of detailed answer I was looking for!  Good excuse to go make some dough and try some more bakes.  ;D

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Offline Buck47

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Re: Correlation between hydration and cook temp and time
« Reply #10 on: November 26, 2019, 08:49:31 AM »
 ^^^

Your message notification came in just as I was scaling and balling a 64% hydration 48 hour dough.
Plan on baking at 650 F.  My normal bake temp is at 550 F.

A nice thing about our Bakers Pride ovens is they reach temps of 652 F / 350 C

Best of luck on your bake. Let us know how yours turn out. Regards: john

PS:  thanks Tom
« Last Edit: November 26, 2019, 08:53:24 AM by Buck47 »
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Correlation between hydration and cook temp and time
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2019, 01:16:08 PM »
If you have ever made bread at home and had it collapse, even partially collapse in the oven, you might have noticed that the finished bread had a crumb structure that was similar to some form of an art gum eraser in the making. The open porous crumb structure allows for effective moisture migration towards the heat (the oven air) while a more dense crumb structure restricts the migration of moisture resulting in a higher moisture content in the finished product. So when the bread dough cited above collapses it becomes more dense and retains more water/moisture in the finished product, in many cases this can dramatically change the entire character of the crumb structure. This is also one of the reasons why when a dough is opened 100% by sheeting, be it by machine or rolling/pastry pin, it is more difficult to obtain a finished crust that is as crispy as that from a dough that was opened by hand, and in many cases the crust formed by the sheeting process may not retain its crispiness as well as a hand opened dough. This is why in many cases we allow a skin formed by the sheeting process to proof for a few minutes after forming as this allows the dough to develop a better internal cell structure which is more conducive to removing moisture during the baking process.
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Offline sjaredj

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Re: Correlation between hydration and cook temp and time
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2019, 09:26:57 AM »
^^^

Your message notification came in just as I was scaling and balling a 64% hydration 48 hour dough.
Plan on baking at 650 F.  My normal bake temp is at 550 F.

John - How did your bake at 650 turn out?  I have been trying to cook as high as possible on my M02T but not got the results I wanted.  I've had this notion that good NY pizza needs to be cooked at high temps (like the coal fired places I've been) but my research is revealing that good pizza (with the right formula) can be made at lower temps.  My cheese seems to break down and look horrible when launching between 650-675 (bake time around 4:30-5:00).  I have tried both Restaurant Depot's house brand shredded whole milk mozzarella and part skim Stella brand.  Both do much better at 700 degrees on my blackstone for a shorter back time.  So I figure a lower temp will help in that department

So I have decided to abandon the thought of high temp = good pizza on my MO2T and see if I can duplicate some pie's I have seen photo's of cooked at 500-550.  What hydration level and sugar level have you seen your best results on your BP oven?  I assume at 500-550 you cook right on the stone (I have been using a screen because my pizzas were getting way to done on the bottom before the tops were done)?  Also what is an average cook time you shoot for?  What type of cheese do you use.

Thanks,
Jared

Offline Buck47

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Re: Correlation between hydration and cook temp and time
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2019, 10:40:25 AM »
Good Morning Jared:

Baking at 650F did not go well. It's not the way for me to go with this particular recipe.

Quote
I've had this notion that good NY pizza needs to be cooked at high temps (like the coal fired places I've been) but my research is revealing that good pizza (with the right formula) can be made at lower temps.

I have come to the same conclusion myself.  Different posting of Tom Lehmann, Pete-zza, norma427, & Waltertore where very helpful. The inspiration for the pizza i'm now making came from the many post on (RE: Evolution of the NY style Pizza) & ( RE: NY style : Rim Characteristics)
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14920.msg395235#msg395235
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49676.msg499186#msg499186

Tom Lehmann's method of  mixing dough solved the problems I was having incorporating oil and getting a soft (non sticky) skin on the final dough.

You will find my recipe and methods here Re: Horse Barn - Pizza / Stromboli
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=56409.msg599837#msg599837

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=56409.msg599972#msg599972

«  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=56409.msg602947#new

The last post details out how I worked through many of the same things you are dealing with.

The ovens we both have are a big part of getting a good pizza.  Home oven will come close but the real spit and polish come from having a real pizza oven. :chef:

Let me know If I can answer any questions.  Best regards: john
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 06:28:12 AM by Buck47 »
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Offline danq10

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Re: Correlation between hydration and cook temp and time
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2019, 03:27:03 AM »
Generally speaking, higher dough absorption performs better with higher baking temperatures and there comes a point where it's essentially mandatory or the dough will collapse in the oven when it should be experiencing oven spring. Lower absorption doughs are usually best baked at lower oven temperatures. Dealing with deck ovens a lower temperature means 450 to 525F and a higher temperature means 550 to 650F and more. Many deck ovens will not reach a sufficiently high temperature to effectively handle the truly high absorption doughs which will require a baking temperature of 700 to 900F. As the dough absorption rises the dough becomes softer and more extensible so it rises faster and a little sooner during the oven spring stage of baking, this is why you are seeing a more open cell structure, you should also get a more tender eating crust which is more crispy too. As opposed to many home ovens, any commercial oven should bake a better pizza at comparable temperatures due to the greater heat/temperature recovery of the commercial oven resulting in the pizza baking at a more constant temperature than non-commercial ovens which in many cases lack decent heat recovery, this is especially evident when baking multiple pizzas back to back.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

When you say lower dough absorption, does that mean the hydration level? and at around range is ideal for low hydration when baking around 300c(572f)?

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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Correlation between hydration and cook temp and time
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2019, 12:33:08 PM »
While not technically the same (Absorption is a characteristic of flour to take up and retain water or other liquid, expressed as a percent of the flour weight) while (Hydration is the ability of flour to absorb water or other liquid, there are two aspects to hydration, 1) Total amount of liquid absorbed and 2) The rate at which it is absorbed) the two terms are used interchangeably by home bakers.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline lag

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Re: Correlation between hydration and cook temp and time
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2019, 06:06:02 PM »
As in most things there can be different philosophies and opinions as there appear to be with hydration levels,cooking times and temperatures.
Ken Forkish in his book “The Elements of Pizza” states  that there is an inverse relationship between hydration level and temperature- that in higher temperature ovens  with fast cooking times there is little time for moisture to be released and therefore lower hydration doughs are preferable.
He emphasizes “the need to match the dough and its hydration to the oven and it’s baking temperature”.
High temps need low hydration and lower oven temps benefit from higher hydration levels.
In my experience with my backyard wood burning oven I am finding better, crispier and more flavorful pizza by reducing hydration to 56-58%.
I am interested in other people’s results.

Offline sjaredj

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Re: Correlation between hydration and cook temp and time
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2019, 01:05:54 PM »
Interesting point and citation.  The Elements of Pizza just happens to be one of the 3 books the fat red suited man is bringing me in a few days so I'll be able to read about all this, soon!!  :D

Most all of the formula's I have been playing with have been hydrations between 64-67% until just the other day I tried one down in the high 50's like you mention and it opened my eyes to a different texture (cooked in my BP electric oven). 

I completely agree with matching dough to oven temps and bake time.  The same dough baked in the same oven at different temps yields completely different results, case in point I just did that this week, I cooked on my BS with a launch temp of ~930 and got probably the best Neapolitan style pizza I have ever cooked (had the BS for almost 7 years too).  I had my son cook the next two and didn't know he turned the flame way down and cooked the next pizzas for longer and they looked and tasted completely different.

I have some Johnny's clone dough balls in the fridge now (from Craig's old post https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=33831.msg336336#msg336336) and just wrote down the recipe for a Chicago thin  that looked interesting (from https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=37010.msg368999#msg368999).  I'm interested in trying different points on the spectrum (for hydration this time around) to see characteristics of finished crust.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 04:30:35 PM by sjaredj »

Offline dashawn

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Re: Correlation between hydration and cook temp and time
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2019, 05:47:26 PM »
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it sounds like the difference in philosophy comes down to whether you believe that the improved evaporation caused by the more open structure created by a wet dough is enough to compensate for the added moisture that needs to be cooked off before the toppings burn.

I think Neapolitan dough tends to be on the dry side(60% or so) and baked at high temp. It ends up with softer/chewier texture, so would a wet dough generally get crispier at high temp?

I’m interested in what the qualitative results are if you bake a wet dough at high temp vs. dry dough at high temp vs. wet dough at low temp vs. dry dough at low temp. Assuming bake time is held constant.


Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Correlation between hydration and cook temp and time
« Reply #19 on: December 19, 2019, 08:03:11 PM »
The research that we did at AIB indicated that a dough which expands more during baking (increased oven spring), for whatever reason (including increased dough absorption) will produce a crispier finished crust. In a deck oven or stone hearth oven the crust is being baked at a much higher temperature than the toppings due to the evaporative cooling effect of of moisture in the sauce and toppings.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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