A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: Mixing Times  (Read 1112 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline classicalthunder

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 70
  • Location: philly
  • I Love Pizza!
Mixing Times
« on: November 27, 2019, 02:34:52 PM »
Question - how long do you mix your dough for?  I have a Kitchen Aid 600 series,and my general order of operations is as follows:

1.) I mix Dry (flour + salt) into a well mixed Wet (65% water + yeast, sugar, oil)
2.) mix to combine at speed 1 for until a shaggy dough forms, let rest for 20-30 min
3.) mix on speed 1 with the dough hook for 2-4 min until a cohesive tacky ball forms
4.) let rest for another 30 minutes and then divide and ball

Until recently, I thought I was doing the right thing as I've heard that you shouldn't over kneed the dough.  But recently, I've been following some local pizza places on Instagram and see that their dough looks much smoother and more elastic coming out of the mixer than mine ever does...should i be mixing my dough longer or faster?


 

Offline jvp123

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3005
  • Location: Los Angeles, California
  • Trying to make my perfect pizza ...
Re: Mixing Times
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2019, 04:34:22 PM »
Question - how long do you mix your dough for?  I have a Kitchen Aid 600 series,and my general order of operations is as follows:

1.) I mix Dry (flour + salt) into a well mixed Wet (65% water + yeast, sugar, oil)
2.) mix to combine at speed 1 for until a shaggy dough forms, let rest for 20-30 min
3.) mix on speed 1 with the dough hook for 2-4 min until a cohesive tacky ball forms
4.) let rest for another 30 minutes and then divide and ball

Until recently, I thought I was doing the right thing as I've heard that you shouldn't over kneed the dough.  But recently, I've been following some local pizza places on Instagram and see that their dough looks much smoother and more elastic coming out of the mixer than mine ever does...should i be mixing my dough longer or faster?

Interested to hear the responses - I've read and heard so many different answers to this question.  I have the same mixer as you with the spiral hook.  My has never gotten to the smooth and satiny stage off the hook (like I see from commercial mixers), but maybe I haven't mixed it long enough.  I do get there though after a 20 minute rest period.  I've tried shorter mixes (4 or 5 mins) on "stir" with some kneading afterwards and longer mixes at around 8 mins on #2.   Haven't noticed a noticeable difference in the finished crust.  I think I'm getting to about the same place with both methods because I am kneading a little in the shorter mix version.

I've also heard that slight under mixing is OK (and possibly preferred) when cold fermenting for a day or two (or longer) as gluten develops biochemically during this time.  The last thing I want is tough, chewy crust from over mixing so lately I've been trying shorter, slower mixes.  Still not sure of the best method yet, to be honest.

Unfortunately I don't think there is a definitive answer to this question. 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2019, 05:21:41 PM by jvp123 »
Jeff

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 14394
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Mixing Times
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2019, 05:33:07 PM »
Mix for 10 min.   ;)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 6124
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: Mixing Times
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2019, 07:09:16 PM »
Your question is impossible for me to answer as I don't know anything about your flour, type of dough agitator, dough size/amount of flour used or dough formulation all of which will impact dough mixing time, and then for good measure let's add ability of the mixer to mix whatever the dough size is at a sufficiently high R.P.M. (stir) is not it, so I'm guessing you're either mixing at too slow of a speed or the mixer doesn't have enough Oomph to do the job at a higher speed with your dough size. All of that aside, you should be mixing your dough at something between 115 and 125 R.P.M. if you are trying to develop the gluten mechanically, at that speed it should take 8 to 10-minutes to achieve the desired smooth appearance (this is assuming you have a reverse spiral dough arm, if you have a straight "J" hook or "C" hook you will need to go to about 150 R.P.M. to get the dough to come off of the hook for decent mixing action.
May I suggest an easier mixing method?
Put water in mixing bowl.
Add salt and sugar (no need to mix).
Add flour and yeast (yeast on top of the flour unless ADY).
Mix at low speed just until you don't see any dry flour in the bowl, then add the oil.
Mix one more minute at low speed after adding the oil.
Mix at the highest speed possible (see above) until a smooth skin is developed on the dough.
Measure the dough temperature (70 to 75F).
Scale and ball.
Lightly oil.
Refrigerate 24 to 72 or more hours.

Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline jvp123

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3005
  • Location: Los Angeles, California
  • Trying to make my perfect pizza ...
Re: Mixing Times
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2019, 07:24:04 PM »
Your question is impossible for me to answer as I don't know anything about your flour, type of dough agitator, dough size/amount of flour used or dough formulation all of which will impact dough mixing time, and then for good measure let's add ability of the mixer to mix whatever the dough size is at a sufficiently high R.P.M. (stir) is not it, so I'm guessing you're either mixing at too slow of a speed or the mixer doesn't have enough Oomph to do the job at a higher speed with your dough size. All of that aside, you should be mixing your dough at something between 115 and 125 R.P.M. if you are trying to develop the gluten mechanically, at that speed it should take 8 to 10-minutes to achieve the desired smooth appearance (this is assuming you have a reverse spiral dough arm, if you have a straight "J" hook or "C" hook you will need to go to about 150 R.P.M. to get the dough to come off of the hook for decent mixing action.
May I suggest an easier mixing method?
Put water in mixing bowl.
Add salt and sugar (no need to mix).
Add flour and yeast (yeast on top of the flour unless ADY).
Mix at low speed just until you don't see any dry flour in the bowl, then add the oil.
Mix one more minute at low speed after adding the oil.
Mix at the highest speed possible (see above) until a smooth skin is developed on the dough.
Measure the dough temperature (70 to 75F).
Scale and ball.
Lightly oil.
Refrigerate 24 to 72 or more hours.

Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Thanks for your insight, Tom.   My dough never gets to a smooth skin in my KA mixer and that's after I've mixed up to 10 mins on the #2 setting.  How important is a smooth skin during the mix if you are cold fermenting for a day or two and are looking for a less chewy crust? Isn't it better to under mix if you want a lighter crumb?
Jeff

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 6124
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: Mixing Times
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2019, 12:14:18 AM »
The reason for developing the dough until it develops a smooth skin is to reduce the stickiness and amount of dusting flour required during the scaling and balling (rounding) process. Even at that level of gluten development the dough is still far from fully developed so there is little or nothing to be gained from mixing it any less. If you want to optimize an open cell structure you should concentrate on optimizing the dough absorption for the type of pizza you're making as well as the baking characteristics of your oven. For a less chewy finished crust I suggest using a lower protein, bread type flour with a protein content in the 12 to 12.8% range in conjunction with 48 to 72-hours cold fermentation time.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline jvp123

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3005
  • Location: Los Angeles, California
  • Trying to make my perfect pizza ...
Re: Mixing Times
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2019, 01:57:35 AM »
The reason for developing the dough until it develops a smooth skin is to reduce the stickiness and amount of dusting flour required during the scaling and balling (rounding) process. Even at that level of gluten development the dough is still far from fully developed so there is little or nothing to be gained from mixing it any less. If you want to optimize an open cell structure you should concentrate on optimizing the dough absorption for the type of pizza you're making as well as the baking characteristics of your oven. For a less chewy finished crust I suggest using a lower protein, bread type flour with a protein content in the 12 to 12.8% range in conjunction with 48 to 72-hours cold fermentation time.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Awesome thanks so much, Tom.   This helps my understanding a lot. Much appreciated!  :)
Jeff

Offline classicalthunder

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 70
  • Location: philly
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Mixing Times
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2019, 09:44:14 AM »
Tom, thanks for your input!  I gave your work flow a shot this weekend and had great results, the dough opened very easily (almost too easily?) with a simple edge stretch or two

some details:
- used KABF  (12.7% according to the bag)
- used a Kitchen Aid reverse spiral mixer arm at approx 8 min at a speed #3
- balled 475g dough balls for a 16" pie  and CF for 72 hours
- took dough out ~3 hours ahead of bake time to get to room temp

Some questions:
- would an Autolyse for an hour help improve dough structure?
- should i mix until the dough gets to 70-75f? or should i just not let it get above that range? I didn't take the temp this time around and tbh, am not sure what the temp reading does/indicates...I've never really paid attention to it in the past...

some pictures:

« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 09:47:28 AM by classicalthunder »

Offline Irishboy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1066
  • Location: California
  • Always do it with passion
Re: Mixing Times
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2019, 06:47:39 PM »
Great information thank you Tom, I've always was under the impression that we should mix as slow as possible then I started doing some experimentation a few weeks ago on higher RPM and you're right it works like a champ, no more dough ball barely getting turned and riding on the hook. I have a different type of mixture like a Bosch style so not sure of the RPM but I basically just turn it to a speed where the dough does not ride on the arms, then I stopped mixing either where the dough got smooth or I hit a finished though temperature of around 75f max. I get a better developed dough ball and less friction this way
« Last Edit: December 09, 2019, 06:50:33 PM by Irishboy »
Josh

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 6124
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: Mixing Times
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2019, 10:05:20 PM »
CT;
An autolyse probably won't help much if any in this case.
Do Not Mix To Temperature! Instead, mix the dough just until it becomes smooth, then measure the dough temperature. Adjust the finished dough temperature of following doughs by manipulating the water temperature up or down as needed to give you a finished dough temperature in the 70 to 75F range. When adjusting the water temperature move it in 5F increments.
DO NOT allow the dough to warm to room temperature, instead, allow it to warm AT room temperature until it reaches 50 to 60F. If you allow the dough to warm to a higher temperature (like room temperature) the dough will easily become almost too soft to easily work with, sound familiar?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline classicalthunder

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 70
  • Location: philly
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Mixing Times
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2019, 10:09:44 AM »
thanks!  definitely sounds familiar! do you recommend taking the temp with a standard digital probe thermometer or a IR gun thermometer?

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 6124
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: Mixing Times
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2019, 12:05:08 PM »
An IR works fine at the mixer but you will need to use a dial/stem type thermometer to measure the internal dough ball temperature prior to opening.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 29134
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Mixing Times
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2019, 12:15:48 PM »
Tom,

Would it work to poke a finger into the dough and then use the IR in the hole, or maybe poke the dough with a probe and then use the IR?

Peter

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 6124
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: Mixing Times
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2019, 12:46:22 PM »
No, because you are just pushing the top of the dough down so you're still reading the temperature at the top of the dough, plus the area that the IR thermometer is reading (collecting data from) is larger in diameter than a finger poke thus leading to an incorrect reading. The only way we were able to get consistently accurate internal ball temperature using an IR thermometer was to actually cut the dough ball in half and measure the temperature of the center portion. This was the only way we could get meaningful data on frozen dough balls too when we were doing studies on freezing of different type of dough and had to accurately measure the internal ball (core) temperature. The solidly frozen outer shell of the dough ball prohibited us from using a dial/stem type thermometer. We once used a drill to drill an entry hole to insert the stem into, this worked but it was a real pain. Ultimately we used a meat cleaver and a chopping block to split the dough balls in half allowing us to measure the temperature more quickly using the IR thermometer.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Irishboy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1066
  • Location: California
  • Always do it with passion
Re: Mixing Times
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2019, 07:51:34 PM »
Peter or Tom I had two questions I was wondering?


We pretty much know commercial mixers are more efficient at mixing dough's  homethan standard mixers correct?  If so wouldn't the home mixture be much longer on mix time compared to the commercial mixer? Like some of the videos you've done in the past I believe they were around a 12-minute mix so wouldn't the time be much greater for a standard KitchenAid? I know there's a lot of variables but just say everything equal.




My second question is I know time will develop gluten but what would the fermented open dough skin be like on a no knead dough after 48hrs compared to one that was mixed until smooth? Would the no knead be any weaker or would both be equal? Would the no knead about more webbing or thin spots?


I also have a bonus question if you feel like answering do you have any suggestions on a accurate way to test the refrigerator temperature? Basically as soon as I open the door by the time I shoot it with the infrared the temperature is quickly rising from the outside are getting sucked in, would a glass of water sitting in the fridge longer be a better more accurate way To check overall average temperature?
« Last Edit: December 10, 2019, 07:53:33 PM by Irishboy »
Josh

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 6124
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: Mixing Times
« Reply #15 on: December 10, 2019, 08:41:38 PM »
Josh;
Many home type mixers are actually pretty efficient at mixing dough so don't count them out as inefficient, also we can make up the difference in time by mixing at a higher speed (more r.p.m.). While mixing is is important from a commercial point of view in that it allows for faster, easier handling of the dough (a sticky dough really bogs things down in a pizzeria when we're trying to scale and bal the dough) it is not nearly as critical when making pizzas at home as we are dealing with only a few pizzas at a time. Remember, the main reason for mixing to get that dry, smooth skin is to facilitate dough handling only. If you don't mind putting up with a sticky or tacky dough you could actually stop mixing as soon as the dough forms a ball that doesn't look like "brain matter" about 5-minutes into the mixing process after adding the oil.
We teach a true no-knead mixing process to home bakers and it involves mixing with a wood spoon, no kneading or anything else. The resulting dough looks like oatmeal, it is transferred to an oiled bowl, the dough itself is lightly oiled, it is then covered with a piece of plastic and allowed to room ferment for 2 to 3-hours, it's turned out of the bowl, kneaded a few times and balled then placed back into the oiled bowl for another 3-hours. It is then turned out of the bowl and divided into multiple pieces for our pizzas or made into a single pizza depending upon the dough size. The resulting crust eats quite tender and has an open, porous crumb structure. Not too shabby for pizza made at home from a dough that didn't need any kneading. The process also makes great bread too, I normally make round loaves from this dough.
Your proposed method for measuring the temperature in the refrigerator is the same that we used except that we used oil instead of water since it doesn't support microbial growth.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Irishboy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1066
  • Location: California
  • Always do it with passion
Re: Mixing Times
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2019, 09:06:25 PM »
Josh;
Many home type mixers are actually pretty efficient at mixing dough so don't count them out as inefficient, also we can make up the difference in time by mixing at a higher speed (more r.p.m.). While mixing is is important from a commercial point of view in that it allows for faster, easier handling of the dough (a sticky dough really bogs things down in a pizzeria when we're trying to scale and bal the dough) it is not nearly as critical when making pizzas at home as we are dealing with only a few pizzas at a time. Remember, the main reason for mixing to get that dry, smooth skin is to facilitate dough handling only. If you don't mind putting up with a sticky or tacky dough you could actually stop mixing as soon as the dough forms a ball that doesn't look like "brain matter" about 5-minutes into the mixing process after adding the oil.
We teach a true no-knead mixing process to home bakers and it involves mixing with a wood spoon, no kneading or anything else. The resulting dough looks like oatmeal, it is transferred to an oiled bowl, the dough itself is lightly oiled, it is then covered with a piece of plastic and allowed to room ferment for 2 to 3-hours, it's turned out of the bowl, kneaded a few times and balled then placed back into the oiled bowl for another 3-hours. It is then turned out of the bowl and divided into multiple pieces for our pizzas or made into a single pizza depending upon the dough size. The resulting crust eats quite tender and has an open, porous crumb structure. Not too shabby for pizza made at home from a dough that didn't need any kneading. The process also makes great bread too, I normally make round loaves from this dough.
Your proposed method for measuring the temperature in the refrigerator is the same that we used except that we used oil instead of water since it doesn't support microbial growth.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
.
as always thank you doctor's.


After reading your post about higher RPM not that long ago I tried it and it worked fantastic in my situation I feel it is the best way to go about it really gets that dough develop quickly with less friction.




Happy holidays
Josh

Offline bradtri

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 953
Re: Mixing Times
« Reply #17 on: December 17, 2019, 09:04:29 AM »
Beware that using higher speeds on most consumer models of KA to knead dough will likely lead to motor burnout or stripped gears

Then KA support will point out that you invalidated your warranty because of this statement in their manual.

A Taste of Naples Pizza
www.atasteofnaplespizza.com
https://www.facebook.com/ATasteofNaplesPizza/
"Let Us Bring A Taste of Naples To Your Next Party"

Offline classicalthunder

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 70
  • Location: philly
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Mixing Times
« Reply #18 on: December 17, 2019, 11:05:25 AM »
good to know!

I gave another whirl this weekend and started with 65F water which led to a final temp of 75F after about 7-8 min of mixing.  So i guess when its hotter out in the summer I should trend that water temp down to achieve the same end result and if it gets too much colder I would use warmer water, etc.  The dough was balled and then had a 48H CF, I let the dough rest at room temp for 1h45m prior to opening and it was much easier to work with than the 3h the week before (I may even go down to 1h15m to see if i can find the lower limit)...

First two pics are a white pepperoni with fresh and aged mozz, ezzo pepperoni, and muffaletta mix.  The last one is a white pie with garlic, spinach, and crushed tomatoes a la Taconelli's in Philly (albeit with a poor shape due to a launch issue, which was probably induced by a few too many IPAs)

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 6124
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
    • Dough Doctor
Re: Mixing Times
« Reply #19 on: December 17, 2019, 02:52:58 PM »
Measure the internal dough ball temperature at the time of opening, by doing this you will be able to temper the dough ball to this same temperature any time of the year, regardless of room temperature and the dough will always perform/handle in a similar manner. Most pizzerias allow the dough ball to reach 50F before opening but many home pizza makers will allow it to reach a higher temperature with 60F being a pretty common temperature, just remember that the higher the dough temperature the more difficult it can be to open if you are not proficient at opening a dough ball into a skin.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

A D V E R T I S E M E N T