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Author Topic: Tough cornicione/pizza  (Read 552 times)

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Offline danq10

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Tough cornicione/pizza
« on: November 30, 2019, 01:37:36 AM »
Ive read other posts here regarding tough dough, but ive figured I probably should just make a post to be sure.

here is the recipe I use:
water   350g   70%
salt      13g     2.6%
yeast    1.5g    0.3%
apf       500g    100%

Combine yeast and salt with 95f water. Mix in water to dough. knead till most of the flour is absorbed by dough then rest for 20min.
Knead dough again till its smooth then rest again for 2hrs. Divide dough and shape into 4 balls then refrigerate overnight(roughly 18-24hrs)

The next day I let the dough out the fridge for 2hrs before stretching. Around 1.5hrs the dough expands a bit more.
When I stretch the dough by hand, I make it really thin(thinner than NY style)

When baking there 2 methods Ive tried:
1. I stretch the dough, put all ingredients on top, then bake for 5min in 300c (this dough seems a bit tougher than the other one)
2. I stretch the dough, prebake dough for 30sec each side, top it then bake 5min in 300c (this is one, the cornicione is still tough but the pizza is a bit better)

How do I make everything less tough

Thank you for the reply!
« Last Edit: November 30, 2019, 01:51:29 AM by danq10 »

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Tough cornicione/pizza
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2019, 11:35:22 PM »
I am NOT the dough doctor... but I'm guessing the addition of any type of fat would work wonders. Whether it be oil, margarine, butter or lard. Tom will reply soon I'm sure! :)

Offline Yael

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Re: Tough cornicione/pizza
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2019, 06:48:51 AM »
Can try a reply here...

As Juan said, yes, first you can add fat (EVO around 3% is a standard amount).
70% hydration seems to be on the high side, but like this I would say the dough should actually be crispier and tender, not chewier.. I guess it depends on many factors (starting with which flour you're using).
For the record, which yeast are you using? Must be IDY there, no?

Ok having said all that, my first suggestion would be to make a longer CF (48H or 72H). If your flour can take 70% hydration without you mentioning stickiness, it must be a high protein flour, so the higher the protein the longer the fermentation should be.

Last thing, I would try to avoid mixing salt and yeast together, as salt can absorb water contained in yeast cells and making them inactive (like dead).
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Tough cornicione/pizza
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2019, 10:58:47 AM »
Last thing, I would try to avoid mixing salt and yeast together, as salt can absorb water contained in yeast cells and making them inactive (like dead).

Apparently this is standard operating procedure for pizza dough in Naples.  I've heard that this makes the dough more plastic and extendable, maybe due to some yeast death and consequent release of glutathione (a dough conditioner).  I still have to confirm this with experiments, but I normally mix water and salt, then add the small amount of yeast I use and let it stand for 5 minutes.  I can't say that I've noticed poor fermentation arising from this.

An interesting experiment to do is to mix some fine ground salt and fresh cake yeast.  You can see how it quickly turns into a wet mess indicating how the salt has killed the yeast and pulled the water out of it's cells.
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Offline danq10

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Re: Tough cornicione/pizza
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2019, 04:22:11 PM »
Can try a reply here...

As Juan said, yes, first you can add fat (EVO around 3% is a standard amount).
70% hydration seems to be on the high side, but like this I would say the dough should actually be crispier and tender, not chewier.. I guess it depends on many factors (starting with which flour you're using).
For the record, which yeast are you using? Must be IDY there, no?

Ok having said all that, my first suggestion would be to make a longer CF (48H or 72H). If your flour can take 70% hydration without you mentioning stickiness, it must be a high protein flour, so the higher the protein the longer the fermentation should be.

Last thing, I would try to avoid mixing salt and yeast together, as salt can absorb water contained in yeast cells and making them inactive (like dead).

Im using instant yeast. I dont know if the all purpose flour im using has a very high protein content. Bread flour is also available to me.
When I knead all purpose flour vs bread flour there is a big difference, bread flour becomes less sticky fast while kneading.

When I use all purpose flour I actually dont knead that much, for some reason when I leave it to rest it just gets less sticky overtime
Also if im having difficulty I just dust some flour on my hands again.

All suggestions noted!

Im using the recipe from "The Elements of Pizza" by Ken Forkish

EDIT: I just checked the nutrition facts on the flour, it says 4grams for every 30g of flour, Correct me if im wrong but I think this would be 13% protein?
« Last Edit: December 01, 2019, 04:39:32 PM by danq10 »

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Offline megan45

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Re: Tough cornicione/pizza
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2019, 05:17:24 PM »
EDIT: I just checked the nutrition facts on the flour, it says 4grams for every 30g of flour, Correct me if im wrong but I think this would be 13% protein?

Unless food labling laws in the Philippines are more strict than in the US, the published number is likely rounded to the nearest full gram, meaning tht actual protein content could be anywhere from 3.5-4.4g per 30g of flour.

Last thing, I would try to avoid mixing salt and yeast together, as salt can absorb water contained in yeast cells and making them inactive (like dead).

On the other hand, Tom Lehman says this; and this about mixing yeast and salt.

Offline danq10

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Re: Tough cornicione/pizza
« Reply #6 on: December 02, 2019, 01:45:52 AM »
Unless food labling laws in the Philippines are more strict than in the US, the published number is likely rounded to the nearest full gram, meaning tht actual protein content could be anywhere from 3.5-4.4g per 30g of flour.

On the other hand, Tom Lehman says this; and this about mixing yeast and salt.

The articles talk of sugar, should I be putting sugar also?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2019, 02:06:52 AM by danq10 »

Offline megan45

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Re: Tough cornicione/pizza
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2019, 08:46:49 AM »
The articles talk of sugar, should I be putting sugar also?

You can try it, but sugar is by no means necessary. I don't (and never have) use(d) sugar, and have no cornicione issues, even with 4-6 day cold ferments.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Tough cornicione/pizza
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2019, 01:29:57 PM »
The addition of any kind of fat to the dough formula will go a long ways towards making for a more tender eating crust, but what struck my interest was your comment on how the dough just gets more sticky as you allow it to rest/ferment (did I read this correctly?). If this is indeed the case you might be dealing with a flour with a high level of starch damage. There is just no way you can ferment a dough made with a high starch damage flour for more than an hour or so. You might look around to see if you can find a similar flour to that which is being used by Greenwich Pizza/Jolibee Foods Corp. The flour they had been using was made from U.S. hard red spring wheat milled there in the Philippines.
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Offline danq10

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Re: Tough cornicione/pizza
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2019, 03:51:25 PM »
The addition of any kind of fat to the dough formula will go a long ways towards making for a more tender eating crust, but what struck my interest was your comment on how the dough just gets more sticky as you allow it to rest/ferment (did I read this correctly?). If this is indeed the case you might be dealing with a flour with a high level of starch damage. There is just no way you can ferment a dough made with a high starch damage flour for more than an hour or so. You might look around to see if you can find a similar flour to that which is being used by Greenwich Pizza/Jolibee Foods Corp. The flour they had been using was made from U.S. hard red spring wheat milled there in the Philippines.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

It gets less sticky overtime, so its easier for me to knead. Is this normal?

Just tried using olive oil (15g 3%), big difference indeed!

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Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Tough cornicione/pizza
« Reply #10 on: December 03, 2019, 10:02:10 PM »
It gets less sticky overtime, so its easier for me to knead. Is this normal?

Just tried using olive oil (15g 3%), big difference indeed!

I used to make my dough without ANY added fat at all... once I added some vegetable oil (about 2%) it made a night and day difference. Not only that... but Tom says that the addition of fat helps to lock in the flavours of the cooked dough. It's really a win-win...  :D

Offline danq10

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Re: Tough cornicione/pizza
« Reply #11 on: December 04, 2019, 12:10:32 AM »
I used to make my dough without ANY added fat at all... once I added some vegetable oil (about 2%) it made a night and day difference. Not only that... but Tom says that the addition of fat helps to lock in the flavours of the cooked dough. It's really a win-win...  :D

Ill try other types of oils/fats also!

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Tough cornicione/pizza
« Reply #12 on: December 04, 2019, 06:04:17 PM »
Ill try other types of oils/fats also!

I've settled on vegetable oil here at work... super cheap and works fine. I've tried lard, shortening, butter and margarine and overall, my employees preferred the oil the best. :)

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Tough cornicione/pizza
« Reply #13 on: December 04, 2019, 06:22:42 PM »
Some flours exhibit a slow hydration rate (this is also common to coarse ground flours too) which would explain why the dough seems to dry up as it ferments. You can easily get around this by using an autolyse as part of your dough making process, this is also beneficial if you are hand mixing your doughs too.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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