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Author Topic: I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.  (Read 615 times)

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Offline Minolta Rokkor

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I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.
« on: December 01, 2019, 05:58:40 PM »
I want to build a waring wpo500 by converting it to 240v oven elements. With 240v elements it will have 2x to 3x the power output.

My question is, how are electric pizza ovens set up?

Which of the following is typical.

Balanced elements (both are same wattage)

Lower element at a lower wattage and upper element a higher wattage

Or

Lower element at a higher wattage and upper element  at lower wattage.

Pizza is about balance, nothing more nothing less

Offline ira

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Re: I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2019, 09:37:52 PM »
Well, as soon as you get it you can measure the resistance of the elements and see, but if it was me, I'd go big on the heaters with controls to limit the heat to what I want at the moment. It's always easy to turn it down, but not so easy to turn it past 10.


Ira

Offline Minolta Rokkor

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Re: I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2019, 05:33:14 AM »
I know nothing about heater element control, how do I set that up?
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Offline Minolta Rokkor

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Re: I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2019, 08:24:48 AM »
Another question is how much power is too much power?

The stock wattage is 1800w at 120v, however if you convert the oven to use 240v broiler elements, you will get a 8000w of power.

Will also upgrade the insulation and add an extended 50 amp power cord.
Pizza is about balance, nothing more nothing less

Offline barryvabeach

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Re: I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2019, 08:56:35 PM »
First, before you substitute anything,  do a lot of reading and make sure you are careful.  If you make a mistake, you can electrocute yourself, or catch your house on fire,  electricity does not always give you a warning before something goes bad.   I have played around with a number of electric pizza ovens, and have changed out elements, and done wiring of other appliances, like smokers, so I am pretty familiar, but even so,  I try to be very careful.

 In general, the upper and lower element are the same wattage, though that may be more a function of cost and ease of assembly  ( the manufacturer only has to stock one element, and the same one goes in top and bottom )   Since the upper element conducts heat by radiation, and the lower heats the stone which in turn heats the pie by conduction, I don't think there is any need to have them balanced in wattage.  On the other hand, the space between the upper element and the top of the stone is usually so small, the upper element will tend to heat the stone quite a bit, so i don't see a downside to balanced elements.   

If you want to upgrade, the main issues are making sure that every component in the electrical control system can handle the increased wattage.  some things are easy - like switches and thermostats - they are usually stamped right on them the max volts and watts.  It is not uncommon to find that the existing switch is rated much higher than the current wiring so you can use that switch without a change.  Other components are a harder, like wire - it isn't stamped with its gauge or amp rating. If you find a bare section, and measure the diameter with a caliper, you can then find a chart that tells you what size it is, and then you can find other charts that tell you what gauge you need to carry various loads different distances.  For the ones I used, the manufacturer supplied wire is usually sized for that application, so I have always upgraded. It is not all that hard, just make sure you buy high temp wire and connectors and tape.  If you need to upgrade the  thermostats and switches with  a higher rating may be more difficult to find ones that fit is the same space.

Note that increasing the wattage won't change the upper temperature, it will only let the oven get to that temp quicker - so you will have shorter preheats and quicker recovery times.  If you want to change the upper temperature, you have to change out the thermostat, and that presents a host of other issues.  As the heat increases, you run the risk that it breaks down the insulation on the wires, which if you are lucky will cause a short and trip a fuse, and if you are not as lucky, will cause an electrical fire, which can be hard to extinguish.  I have not found any charts that tell you how much juice a wire will conduct at different temperatures -  and that would be a major issue for you if you change out the top temperature    That is,  while a 16 gauge wire may safely conduct a certain number of watts when it is in open air at 100F,  as you increase the temp in the oven, you increase the temp in the cavity where the oven is run, and that may dramatically decrease the amount of current the wire can handle. http://www.rowand.net/shop/tech/wirecapacitychart.htm

The final issue is finding the right size and type of element.  The top element should have a number of evenly spaced turns so that the top of the pie gets even heat  ( unless you want to be like the Breville and have the heat concentrated at the rim of the pie )  on the bottom element, that is not as critical assuming you are using a stone that conducts heat quickly.  My biggest problem was finding an element of the right size - length and width, and wattage, since most places that sell elements categorize them by the ovens they fit, not by length width, voltage, and wattage.  I did a post a few years ago with the sources I found at that time, though even then it was a bit of a chore finding all three pieces of info on each element.

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Offline champignon

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Re: I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2019, 11:54:29 PM »
Why not just buy the WPO750, the double deck version, which is 220v right out of the box?  this would probably be much cheaper in the long run and you won't burn your house down in the process.

Offline Minolta Rokkor

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Re: I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2019, 06:31:58 AM »
Well the WPO750 is just too big and heavy for what I'm doing. Plus with mods I'll do to it, it will pull way too many amps.

champignon, I don't want to mess with the thermostat, all I am looking for is lighting fast recovery and pre heats. I will be baking in operating temperature of 550*f.
Like Barry said, I'll do a lot of research and see what parts I need to buff/upgrade.

Looks like a wiring upgrade is mandatory.
Pizza is about balance, nothing more nothing less

Offline barryvabeach

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Re: I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2019, 07:00:47 AM »
Changing the wattage is much safer than changing the top temperature, though of course, you still need to proceed with caution.   Here is the link to the post from 2013,  quite possible the links are no longer good, but at least it gives you an idea of what to look for in choosing elements.   https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22190.msg244939#msg244939    High temp wire is pretty easy to find -  repair clinic and amazon both stock it, though IIRC, I had trouble finding different colors, so I just bought white and colored it with a marker . 

Here is the current Supco catalog for elements - though as you can see, you need to click on each element to get the dimensions, wattage, and dimensions   https://www.supco.com/web/supco_live/product.php?department=6012&category=61&subcategory=105   once you have the element number, you can search for it at Amazon or any of the repair parts places.   Bake elements normally have fewer passes than broil elements, but I don't know if they have other differences, like going to a higher temp.  Where possible,  I try to get a broil element for the upper element, the lower element can be broil or bake.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 07:05:12 AM by barryvabeach »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2019, 10:14:15 AM »
Barry,

I went back to your original post at Reply 10 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22190.msg244939#msg244939 and tried to find Wayback Machine replacements for the links that no longer work. I found a couple of replacements but one of the pdf links was said to be corrupted and could not be opened. And the page 460 link could not be found. I can't say that the updating of the inoperative links will be of any help to you or MR.

Peter

Offline barryvabeach

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Re: I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2019, 08:49:23 PM »
Peter,  thanks for trying.  Sometimes it seems like I did something a short time ago, and then I check the post and see that it was in fact many years ago.  I did find the current Supco catalog and that should help, though one of the older links had several elements per page, which made checking wattage much quicker.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2019, 08:50:58 PM by barryvabeach »

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Offline champignon

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Re: I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2019, 11:34:50 PM »
Well the WPO750 is just too big and heavy for what I'm doing. Plus with mods I'll do to it, it will pull way too many amps.

champignon, I don't want to mess with the thermostat, all I am looking for is lighting fast recovery and pre heats. I will be baking in operating temperature of 550*f.
Like Barry said, I'll do a lot of research and see what parts I need to buff/upgrade.

Looks like a wiring upgrade is mandatory.

550 degrees F is nothing for this oven, even in its stock 120v configuration.

My suggestion would be to replace the stock stone (which is a real POS) with a 1" cordierite stone from California Pizza Stones or your pick of local kiln stores (think cordierite kiln shelf).

Once heated up, the 1" stone should have no difficulty maintaining temps for a multi pizza session.

Good luck!

Offline Minolta Rokkor

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Re: I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2019, 06:23:35 AM »
I already have an 18x18x1 California pizza stone.

Tbh I'm going to buy their 18x18x1.5" stone and use that, the oven ought to be a little roided up by then.
Pizza is about balance, nothing more nothing less

Offline champignon

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Re: I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2019, 10:37:49 PM »
I already have an 18x18x1 California pizza stone.

Tbh I'm going to buy their 18x18x1.5" stone and use that, the oven ought to be a little roided up by then.

I have a 1" stone for mine that I used for months, but then went in the opposite direction down to 3/4".  The warm up time was really long with a 1" stone, plus it noticeably decreases the size of the open cooking chamber, and makes launching slightly more difficult if you aren't cooking on a screen.  I'd go with the 1" if I was wanting to do a large session with a whole lot of pizzas, however.  I haven't been cooking more than maybe 5 pizzas in one session, ever, so it's not an issue for me.

1.5" for me would be just a bit too much.

Offline Minolta Rokkor

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Re: I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2019, 08:48:55 AM »
Heard that, my biggest issue might be finding a thermostat and switch that can handle the current.

I have to buy a switch and thermostat from a large bakers pride oven and somehow getting on or in the oven. Or unless I can buy a generic 240v switch and thermostat for less.

The switch can only handle 15 amps, the thermostat doesn't say.

It won't look stock probably, might have a build a housing or it might just stick out and look cobbled together.
Pizza is about balance, nothing more nothing less

Offline Minolta Rokkor

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Re: I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2019, 10:15:58 AM »
Ok found parts that will work! Just retrofit Bakers pride parts on it. The Bakers Pride 3836 runs at 8000w, so all of these parts should handle the current.

240v Bakers pride Switch, probably need two.
https://www.partstown.com/bakers-pride/bkpm1259a

550*f thermostat
https://www.partstown.com/bakers-pride/bkpm1369a
Or

800*f thermostat
https://www.partstown.com/bakers-pride/bkpm1192a

Thermal cut off
https://www.partstown.com/bakers-pride/bkpm1370a

That should be it as far as upgrades.

However, I would LOVE to have the ability and knowledge on how to wire up an infinite switch.

https://www.partstown.com/apw-wyott/apw69103-ego

Basically it gives you independent top and bottom heat control with a dial/knob.
https://www.partstown.com/apw-wyott/apw69103-ego

That's out of my league however.
Pizza is about balance, nothing more nothing less

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Offline ira

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Re: I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2019, 09:01:38 PM »
If you use the 15 amp thermostat you already have or any thermostat with 2 amp or more contacts to control a 50 amp relay, you can do anything you want.


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07T17QNHW/?tag=pmak-20


From a search for "50 amp contactor." Make sure you have one with the correct coil voltage and at least 2 poles and you'll  be good to go. That one is $11 and claims to be good for 40 amps at 600V. Put one on each heating coil and you can control them however you like. That one has a 24V coil so it might not work, but for $40 you can find similar things with 110V and 220V coils.


Ira

Offline barryvabeach

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Re: I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2019, 09:03:42 PM »
Glad you are making progress, but don't forget, you need to find the elements to make this work.   BTW,  typically, you want to find a generic part not the oven manufacturer part where you can, since the mark up is often 100% or more, and Bakers Pride doesn't make the part, they buy it and stock it.    I did a little looking into an infinite switch after I read your post, and don't see the advantage.  It actually looks like a simplified version of a PID proportional–integral–derivative controller    ,  which would be far cheaper than the thermostat you listed, and be more precise, though I don't think you want a gradual reduction in heat, you want full blast.

Offline ira

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Re: I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2019, 09:21:19 PM »
However, I would LOVE to have the ability and knowledge on how to wire up an infinite switch.

https://www.partstown.com/apw-wyott/apw69103-ego

Basically it gives you independent top and bottom heat control with a dial/knob.


I don't believe it does what you think. I believe you're better off with a thermostat or three, preferably one for each element or if you want to get crazy, a PID and solid state relay for each element.


Having looked at the schematics for the devices using that control, toasters, it looks like it relies on knowing how the machine works and picking a continuous on/off cycle. Set it here for this brownness and if it's not right adjust it, not really what you want for pizza.


Ira

Offline Essen1

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Re: I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2019, 11:40:18 PM »
MR,

If you want to butcher a Waring, which I advise against because they are great ovens on their own with adequate recovery times, why not get a cheap Chinese electric off of Alibaba?

Don‘t mess with the Warings unless it‘s small improvements such as insulation, which they could use a bit more of.

I can only shake my head at the urge to immediately f++k with a product without have worked with it at all. I only replaced the stone and the oven operated like a beast.
Mike

“All styles of pizza are valid. I make the best I’m capable of; you should make the best you’re capable of. I don’t want to make somebody else’s pizza.” ~ Chris Bianco

Offline Minolta Rokkor

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Re: I want to build a Waring WP0500, but I have questions.
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2019, 02:40:52 AM »
Glad you are making progress, but don't forget, you need to find the elements to make this work.   BTW,  typically, you want to find a generic part not the oven manufacturer part where you can, since the mark up is often 100% or more, and Bakers Pride doesn't make the part, they buy it and stock it.    I did a little looking into an infinite switch after I read your post, and don't see the advantage.  It actually looks like a simplified version of a PID proportional–integral–derivative controller    ,  which would be far cheaper than the thermostat you listed, and be more precise, though I don't think you want a gradual reduction in heat, you want full blast.
I got the elements

https://www.appliancepartspros.com/whirlpool-elmnt-brol-wpw10583047-ap6023196.html

That's everything other than really heavy gauge wire.
Pizza is about balance, nothing more nothing less

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