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Author Topic: When to add the oil  (Read 1164 times)

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Offline Gluten4punishment

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When to add the oil
« on: December 04, 2019, 10:01:27 AM »
Ok I’m new to making dough with my new kitchen aid stand mixer, today I was making a dough and it was going well.    I had all the flour, water, yeast and salt going and it was kneading nicely with the dough hook.

Then I added my 1% oil and it went to hell, dough wouldn’t knead and it turned into a mess in the bowl

I mixed by hand to incorporate the oil then it was better but not great, question is should I just add the oil at the same time as other ingredients?   I keep hearing add it at the end.

Thanks

Offline Buck47

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Re: When to add the oil
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2019, 11:29:51 AM »
This is what is working well for Me

QUOTE: (Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor)

Put water in mixing bowl.
Add salt and sugar (no need to mix).
Add flour and yeast (yeast on top of the flour unless ADY).
Mix at low speed just until you don't see any dry flour in the bowl,(shaggy dough) then add the oil.
Mix one more minute at low speed after adding the oil.
Mix at the highest speed possible (see above) until a smooth skin is developed on the dough.
Measure the dough temperature (70 to 75F).
Scale and ball.
Lightly oil.
Refrigerate 24 to 72 or more hours.

you should be mixing your dough at something between 115 and 125 R.P.M. if you are trying to develop the gluten mechanically, at that speed it should take 8 to 10-minutes to achieve the desired smooth appearance (this is assuming you have a reverse spiral dough arm, if you have a straight "J" hook or "C" hook you will need to go to about 150 R.P.M. to get the dough to come off of the hook for decent mixing action."

I set my KA between speed two and four to get the 150 rps Tom is recommending. This part is important "Mix at low speed just until you don't see any dry flour in the bowl,(shaggy dough) then add the oil." I then mix 10 to 12 min using a 63 % hydration with a 12 1/2 % protein flour  3 % oil

« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 11:37:06 AM by Buck47 »
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Offline Gluten4punishment

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Re: When to add the oil
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2019, 12:32:42 PM »
This is what is working well for Me

QUOTE: (Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor)

Put water in mixing bowl.
Add salt and sugar (no need to mix).
Add flour and yeast (yeast on top of the flour unless ADY).
Mix at low speed just until you don't see any dry flour in the bowl,(shaggy dough) then add the oil.
Mix one more minute at low speed after adding the oil.
Mix at the highest speed possible (see above) until a smooth skin is developed on the dough.
Measure the dough temperature (70 to 75F).
Scale and ball.
Lightly oil.
Refrigerate 24 to 72 or more hours.

you should be mixing your dough at something between 115 and 125 R.P.M. if you are trying to develop the gluten mechanically, at that speed it should take 8 to 10-minutes to achieve the desired smooth appearance (this is assuming you have a reverse spiral dough arm, if you have a straight "J" hook or "C" hook you will need to go to about 150 R.P.M. to get the dough to come off of the hook for decent mixing action."

I set my KA between speed two and four to get the 150 rps Tom is recommending. This part is important "Mix at low speed just until you don't see any dry flour in the bowl,(shaggy dough) then add the oil." I then mix 10 to 12 min using a 63 % hydration with a 12 1/2 % protein flour  3 % oil

Thanks, I think I waited way too long to add the oil as the skin was already forming.
My 6 quart kitchen aid pro has a spiral hook and it says to mix dough on speed 2. Is that correct? Thanks again.

Offline Buck47

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Re: When to add the oil
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2019, 12:49:18 PM »
Waiting to long to add oil would make my dough flop around like a dead chicken.  Thump, Thump, thump.

Tom's method is what solved that issue and also I started ending up with a smooth outer skin on the dough.

My KA allows me to place the mixing speed between #2 & #4 -- and stay in place for the 10 to 12 min needed to mix the dough. I'm not sure if you can run your KA  the same way I do. Mine is over 25 years old and still running strong.

BTW: my batch size is 560g flour & 352g water.  (3 -11 ounce balls or 3  12'' pies) Any larger batch and the dough climb the hook.

One thing I've learned here is Pizza dough is different than bread dough. You do need more RPM's to get good results.  Non stavano facendo il pane dove fare la pizza  :chef:

Hope this helps 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2019, 12:56:27 PM by Buck47 »
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Offline Gluten4punishment

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Re: When to add the oil
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2019, 02:04:50 PM »
Waiting to long to add oil would make my dough flop around like a dead chicken.  Thump, Thump, thump.

Tom's method is what solved that issue and also I started ending up with a smooth outer skin on the dough.

My KA allows me to place the mixing speed between #2 & #4 -- and stay in place for the 10 to 12 min needed to mix the dough. I'm not sure if you can run your KA  the same way I do. Mine is over 25 years old and still running strong.

BTW: my batch size is 560g flour & 352g water.  (3 -11 ounce balls or 3  12'' pies) Any larger batch and the dough climb the hook.

One thing I've learned here is Pizza dough is different than bread dough. You do need more RPM's to get good results.  Non stavano facendo il pane dove fare la pizza  :chef:

Hope this helps
Thanks yes it does help, mine is new and pretty big and powerful I can do bigger batches, I may try speed 3  next tine.

Mine goes stir,  2-3-4-5-6 I think. Should I start on stir or 2?

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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: When to add the oil
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2019, 05:59:50 PM »
Most of the time the "stir" speed is slower than necessary when mixing just to hydrate the flour prior to the addition of the oil.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Gluten4punishment

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Re: When to add the oil
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2019, 08:22:56 AM »
Most of the time the "stir" speed is slower than necessary when mixing just to hydrate the flour prior to the addition of the oil.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Thanks Tom, just looked my mixer has stir,2.4,6.8.10.  What setting should I use to mix and knead the dough?

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: When to add the oil
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2019, 03:55:59 PM »
Probably either the #4 or #6 speed, but in the end it will be the fastest that your mixer will easily handle the dough at.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline JPChicago

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Re: When to add the oil
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2019, 10:17:48 AM »
Ive been making Pizza and breads at home and commercially for 40 years. My father was also a baker all of his life and worked for a large commercial bakery, producing 2+million lbs of bread daily back in 1992 when he retired. I spent 2 years in Culinary school for baking and have never heard of adding oil after an initial mix.
There is a process in Artisan bread making that calls for an autolyse. Flour and water only mixed until all water is absorbed and then a rest for approx 30-40 min. Then adding remaining ingredients, but generally,
most artisan breads don't contain any fat.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 10:19:27 AM by JPChicago »

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: When to add the oil
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2019, 12:04:26 PM »
JPChicago;
The delayed oil mixing method was not used in bread production during the time your father was employed in the baking industry as the type of fat used in wholesale bread making at the time was either a plastic fat (shorthening) or liquid bread shortening both of which really don't require a delayed addition like vegetable oil does. Today vegetable oil is much more commonly used and it is metered into the horizontal mixer at the end of the first minute of mixing.
As a side note, I'm also from Chicago (far south side) Tinley Park. During the very early 60's I worked in the Jewel Tea Bakery, 1955 W. North Avenue, Melrose Park, IL. There was also Burney Bros. Bakery, Sara Lee Bakery, Gonella Bakery and a sweet goods/pastry bakery whose name I don't remember anymore as well as two bun plants which made buns for McDonalds. Just out of curiosity, can you share with me what years and which bakery your father worked at?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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Offline foreplease

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Re: When to add the oil
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2019, 08:22:53 AM »
Gonella made our family’s favorite bread when I was ages 10-16 or 17ish.
-Tony

Offline JPChicago

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Re: When to add the oil
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2020, 11:16:41 AM »
Tom Lehmann/Dough Doctor
My dad worked at Gonnella between 1952 and 1992. He started at United Bakery on Cicero and Chicago Ave and moved to the Erie Street and Morgan Street locations sometime in the 60's.
He was Foreman for most of and then plant manager for the latter part of his career. He was also their Master Baker and was key in formulation of new products. He was instrumental in the formulation of the frozen dough development that became a big part of Gonnella's business apart from retail. Those frozen products were used (and are still being used) extensively in grocery store bakeries. Thaw, Proof and Bake as well as par baked products. After Retirement, he stayed on as a consultant until about 2002.
JPChicago

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: When to add the oil
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2020, 05:15:06 PM »
Your dad should have known Don Kinstrand?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline JPChicago

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Re: When to add the oil
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2020, 09:49:19 AM »
Name doesn't ring a bell. Unfortunately, he passed in 2010. I wish I had a fraction of the baking knowledge he had!

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: When to add the oil
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2020, 01:54:48 PM »
It sounds like your dad was the last of a breed, they don't make real bakers anymore. Those working in bakeries today are seldom, if ever educated in the trade, they're human robots just doing what they're told to do without any knowledge of why they're doing it. It used to be that when I went into a bakery and asked people how long they had been in the baking industry I'd get answers with two digits, now if I get two years I've found an "old timer", most are measured in months. Sadly, It's JUST a job anymore. Now with the closing of AIB there isn't anyplace for the baking industry to send people for formal training anymore either, and the price is being paid in high employee turnover just like many other industrial companies.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: When to add the oil
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2020, 04:33:07 PM »
Tom,

Today I was reading an article of the 100 lowest paying jobs in America. Bakers were #50 on the list:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/career/the-100-lowest-paying-jobs-in-america/ss-BBYXI8Y?ocid=spartanntp#image=52

Peter

Offline foreplease

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Re: When to add the oil
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2020, 04:44:54 PM »
So many places that produce anything from food to car brakes are going that way, Tom. When you first posted about the AIB auction it was not immediately clear to me that was the end of AIB. Somehow I thought it was a consolidation. I am genuinely sorry that it is over completely. The amount of research and good you (plural) did is staggering - and my gosh for so many years.


We have a renowned bakery here where nobody, other than the owner, knows all the steps in how to make anything they sell. He is protecting his investment, reputation, and lengthy time in the baking business developing some phenomenal breads and desserts. There have only been two owners over the past 53 years. There are certainly some skilled and knowledgeable people there -long termers too - but they purposely take secrecy to a high level.
-Tony

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: When to add the oil
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2020, 05:16:56 PM »
Peter;
It didn't used to be that way. I made a very good living when I went to work for Jewel Tea Bakery in Melrose Park, Illinois  in 1962, by 1964 I had worked up to a line supervisor on the second shift and I was making about $11,000.00 a year with full benefits. Like I said, today nobody really wants to work, much less go the extra effort so the baking industry has gravitated to the position that everyone is expendable and that position is now reflected in the pay scale. To give you an idea of how much that $11,000.00 yearly income was, when I took my first position at the AIB in 1965 my salary was $6,200.00 a year. During those first few years I went to night school and took every opportunity to learn as much as possible, I started my first group in 1967 and continued to grow it right up to the time when AIB made the move from Chicago to Manhattan, Kansas (1976/77). I continued to grow the Experimental Baking Group in Manhattan and finally split myself off from it to allow me time to teach classes and develop the Bakery Assistance activity which I was Director of when I finally retired 5-years ago.
In the end I can say that I was blessed with good decision making and a desire to succeed, I was rewarded with a job (I don't like to call it that, it was really participation in a very professional family of true experts in all subjects related to food and baking). I ALWAYS looked forward to the challenges each day would bring and I was rewarded well for my efforts. Here's a stat you don't hear much of, during my nearly 50-years at AIB I only took 7 sick leave days, total! (I could have taken 14 each year). Four of those days were used when I got my pacemaker and three were used when I almost died from food poisoning in St.George, Utah. Granted, there were days when I probably should have stayed home but I didn't.
Point is, most of us have the opportunity to make our lot in life, one just has to "work" to find it. 
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: When to add the oil
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2020, 06:09:30 PM »
Tom,

That is a great post. You were, and remain, a national (nay, an international) treasure when it comes to pizza making and baking. I saw that early on, and that led to my trying to salvage as much of your written work as I could on this forum. As you know, once the AIB disbanded, much of its work in published form was not archived, at least not at the Wayback Machine. I even went so far as to search the Wayback Machine for AIB articles (under the AIB and American Institute of Baking names), only to see after clicking on a large number of links that few of the AIB documents were archived there. Those that I found I have saved at places like https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.msg401012#msg401012. You can even see that I highlighted AIB. One of my favorite AIB documents, actually FAQs, is the one that is archived at the Wayback Machine at https://web.archive.org/web/20050212111211/http://techserv.aibonline.org/faqs/. They make for fun and useful reading. I might add that for several years I have made donations annually to the Wayback Machine so that they are able to archive documents there, hopefully for many more years.

I have also tried to post links on this forum to articles that you authored for PMQ and Pizza Today but were later discontinued. I found that many of them were archived at the Wayback Machine. I have cited those articles dozens of times. And, similarly, I have tried to save many of your posts at the PMQ Think Tank and the old Pizza Today bulletin board that I felt would be of interest to the members on this forum. And many of your videos now have a home on this forum. You will also see your name appear profusely in the post at Reply 3 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=48803.msg490049#msg490049. Unfortunately, some of your good work at the PMQ Think Tank in its early days was lost when PMQ changed its forum software and did not archive anything. You will notice that I always try to give attribution to your work that I post about on the forum.

It looks like I have some bad habits like you described. In the company from which I retired, I once went something like 28 years in a row without missing a day of work because of personal illness. It seems that I tended to be under the weather while on vacation or on weekends. Similarly, since I joined the forum in August of 2004, I do not recall ever missing a single day of being on the forum, no matter where I was when I signed onto my computers. Many would say that I do not have my priorities right, and they may well be right :-D. My philosophy is to do the best work I can do every day, and with that approach the weeks, months and years should take care of themselves.

Peter

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: When to add the oil
« Reply #19 on: January 17, 2020, 03:04:58 PM »
Amen to that! When we love what we do it shows in our work. I'd rather spend 50-years doing what I love to do than 1-hour doing something that I don't like doing.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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