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Author Topic: Detroit - to par bake or not to par bake?  (Read 753 times)

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Offline classicalthunder

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Detroit - to par bake or not to par bake?
« on: December 19, 2019, 11:20:51 AM »
Interested in crowd sourcing some input on my cooking process for my Detroit pizzas

I use the Pizza Gutt recipe (more like a Detroit/focaccia hybrid) which is 100% KABF, 75% water, 4% EVOO, 2.2% salt, 1% sugar, and 0.6% IDY, typically it works out to about a 625g dough for a 10x14 pan.  His recipe calls for a 6-8 min dough bake at 500f, then remove it from pan and let it cool on a rack, and then topping with cheese another 6-8 min bake at 475f...  Is there a functional reason for this? could it be improved by not par baking?

how many of you par bake Sicilian/Detroit doughs for a home oven?  If not, what are your temps and bake times for cooking a Detroit on a pizza steel...
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 11:22:53 AM by classicalthunder »

Offline HansB

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Re: Detroit - to par bake or not to par bake?
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2019, 12:09:14 PM »
I have not heard of any commercial shops around here par-baking the DS. I bake on the middle rack at 525 for about 13 minutes and get a well baked crust.
Hans

Offline classicalthunder

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Re: Detroit - to par bake or not to par bake?
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2019, 01:14:44 PM »
I'm pretty sure the par baking in Pizza Gutt's recipe came about cause he was initially working out of a coffee house with a turbochef and a separate broiler, I think he has his own shop now, but i think still par bakes to cut down on cook time when hes open (its one of those places that has a line queued up before they open)

I'm working on a home oven w/ a steel that can only really reach 500f...maybe I'll give a single shot cook a try and see if it makes any difference


some more info on the basis for the recipe:
Pizza Gutts IG for some pics of his squares -  https://www.instagram.com/pizza_gutt/?utm_source=ig_embed
a review of his old pop-up shop -  https://www.phillymag.com/foobooz/2017/03/24/pizza-gutt-philly/

Offline jordi

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Re: Detroit - to par bake or not to par bake?
« Reply #3 on: December 19, 2019, 01:23:51 PM »
I think usually, Sicilian and Detroit are par baked and grandmas are not. I know that Apollonia's Detroit-ish pizza in LA is par baked and they have insane crust. In my experience, par baking results in a bready/focaccia style crust with a more open crumb, whereas toppings from the start turns out a little more dense, chewy and pizza-ey. I also think that par baking results in a pizza that has higher center than edge and vice-versa.

I personally prefer the latter, but love 'em both. I like making two pizzas and par baking one and not the other just to test.

Offline HansB

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Re: Detroit - to par bake or not to par bake?
« Reply #4 on: December 19, 2019, 02:17:30 PM »
I think usually, Sicilian and Detroit are par baked and grandmas are not. I know that Apollonia's Detroit-ish pizza in LA is par baked and they have insane crust. In my experience, par baking results in a bready/focaccia style crust with a more open crumb, whereas toppings from the start turns out a little more dense, chewy and pizza-ey. I also think that par baking results in a pizza that has higher center than edge and vice-versa.

I personally prefer the latter, but love 'em both. I like making two pizzas and par baking one and not the other just to test.

Actually around Detroit DS is not par baked. I bake directly on the rack, no stone or steel. Hard to argue with Apollonias pizza though, I've been following for a while and the photos on instagram always look really good.
Hans

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Offline HansB

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Re: Detroit - to par bake or not to par bake?
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2019, 02:19:25 PM »
I'm pretty sure the par baking in Pizza Gutt's recipe came about cause he was initially working out of a coffee house with a turbochef and a separate broiler, I think he has his own shop now, but i think still par bakes to cut down on cook time when hes open (its one of those places that has a line queued up before they open)

I'm working on a home oven w/ a steel that can only really reach 500f...maybe I'll give a single shot cook a try and see if it makes any difference


some more info on the basis for the recipe:
Pizza Gutts IG for some pics of his squares -  https://www.instagram.com/pizza_gutt/?utm_source=ig_embed
a review of his old pop-up shop -  https://www.phillymag.com/foobooz/2017/03/24/pizza-gutt-philly/

At 500 it will bake fine. With steel the bottom may be over done by the time the top is finished? Let us know.

Here's how I make mine. Latest formula is post #115. https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=42012.0
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 02:20:58 PM by HansB »
Hans

Offline scott r

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Re: Detroit - to par bake or not to par bake?
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2019, 08:28:17 AM »
I was surprised to have some excellent par baked Sicilian in the past few years... not Detroit of course, but it did open my eyes.   One was out of slice house in San Fran and one was scarr's in NY.  I dont par bake mine because I really like that burned cheese edge, but these were top notch pizzas. 

Offline classicalthunder

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Re: Detroit - to par bake or not to par bake?
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2019, 09:53:33 AM »
I was surprised to have some excellent par baked Sicilian in the past few years... not Detroit of course, but it did open my eyes.   One was out of slice house in San Fran and one was scarr's in NY.  I dont par bake mine because I really like that burned cheese edge, but these were top notch pizzas.

yea, i guess my underlying question is what is the functional difference between a par baked Detroit/Sicilian and a single bake Detroit/Sicilian...does it change the character of the pizza in any measurable way?

I guess next time i do Detroits I'll try a side by side

Offline parallei

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Re: Detroit - to par bake or not to par bake?
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2019, 09:59:43 AM »
A few years ago, I got a peak into the kitchen at Blue Pan Pizza here in Denver. Detroit style is there thing and they do a very good job.  I was surprised to see that they par baked. The par baked doughs waiting to go had no toppings and I remember noticing how even they were. I've never tried it, but I'm certain if I did the centers would blow up!
« Last Edit: December 20, 2019, 10:07:53 AM by parallei »

Offline HansB

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Re: Detroit - to par bake or not to par bake?
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2019, 10:51:49 AM »
Here's one from yesterday. Not par baked. Baked for 13 minutes @525

I'll be interested to see the difference when you do it classicthunder.

Hans

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Offline jordi

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Re: Detroit - to par bake or not to par bake?
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2019, 02:29:44 PM »
Actually around Detroit DS is not par baked. I bake directly on the rack, no stone or steel. Hard to argue with Apollonias pizza though, I've been following for a while and the photos on instagram always look really good.

Ahh good to know! Curious about what the true definition of par baking is. If there's a layer of sauce on top but nothing else...is it par baking? If there's a layer of cheese but nothing else...is it par baking?

Offline HansB

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Re: Detroit - to par bake or not to par bake?
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2019, 03:03:50 PM »
My understanding of par bake is to bake only the dough to 65-80%.
Hans

Offline parallei

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Re: Detroit - to par bake or not to par bake?
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2019, 05:24:40 PM »
My understanding of par bake is to bake only the dough to 65-80%.

The par baked doughs I saw at Blue Pan Pizza were a pale tan. I'm guessing your low estimate is closer to what I saw.  Now I'll have to try it.....

Offline mikep

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Re: Detroit - to par bake or not to par bake?
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2020, 09:23:11 AM »
I say no par bake.
Yesterday's pies shown.

80% hydra, 2 days cold fermentation, 8  hours proofed in covered pan (Little Caesars)

15 minutes, 480 f, bottom shelf


Offline hotsawce

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Re: Detroit - to par bake or not to par bake?
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2020, 10:41:10 AM »
I don't like parbaked Detroit pizza.

If you want it extra crispy do what Chris does at Descendant - pop it out of the pan and onto the stone for 30 seconds or so. Parbaking screws up the texture and the cheese edge. I know it's super trendy to have a giant wall of carbonized cheese from top to bottom on the sides but I personally think it tastes disgusting.

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Offline foreplease

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Re: Detroit - to par bake or not to par bake?
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2020, 12:00:06 AM »
I don't like parbaked Detroit pizza.

If you want it extra crispy do what Chris does at Descendant - pop it out of the pan and onto the stone for 30 seconds or so. Parbaking screws up the texture and the cheese edge. I know it's super trendy to have a giant wall of carbonized cheese from top to bottom on the sides but I personally think it tastes disgusting.
I think it tastes wonderful. Its a distinguishing characteristic of the style that has been around approximately 70 years. I agree with you on par baking though. I dont like it for any style of pizza - and Ive tried it. If there is a style or formula that only works with par baking Id be willing to try it in a place well known for doing it but would have no interest in learning to do it myself. Id be more inclined to try blind baking, like one would do with a pie crust, but even that for pizza turns me off.
-Tony

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