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Author Topic: Over fermentation issues (CY or Flour issue?)  (Read 601 times)

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Offline ShevyChase

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Over fermentation issues (CY or Flour issue?)
« on: December 20, 2019, 01:10:45 PM »
Dear fellow Pizza lovers,

Its been a while I am struggling with over fermented dough (when they are allready shaped in Pizza Balls) and I was hoping if someone could check my "setup" and see if there is something I'm missing?!

Summary:
2/3 Cuoco Caputo flour
1/3 Manitoba Molino Spadoni
60% hydration
0.5% CY (fresh yeast cube)

For the fermentation times I did some experiments, but usually its 12-14h bulk fridge (~8C) and 6-8h pizza ball shaped in room temp (20-22C, old innercity flat so temps vary sometimes)

However, each time before doing the pizza, the balls collapse. Primarely I have this issue with CY and not Sourdough. I am able to handle the dough, thats not the problem, but since they brake quickly I feel limited when I am doing my Pizza...

So I had two theories, either way too much CY (but I thought having it in the fridge so long would make it OK) OR my flour combo is flawed... ladies and gentlemen, please advise.

PS: picture attached how usually the pizza looks like

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Over fermentation issues (CY or Flour issue?)
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2019, 02:01:48 PM »
With 0.5% CY and 60% dough absorption and less than 24-hours total fermentation time the dough should not be over fermented however that doesn't mean that the flour/flours that you are using have sufficient fermentation tolerance to allow the dough to be fermented for more than about 12-hours. A quick way to test for this is to replace your existing flour blend with 100% bread type flour, if the dough performs better you will know what the issue is. This is based on the assumption that you have the finished dough temperature under control in the 75 to 85F range, if the dough is any warmer than this it can accelerate the fermentation rate resulting in the potential for dough collapse.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline wotavidone

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Re: Over fermentation issues (CY or Flour issue?)
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2019, 02:06:43 PM »
Is there any salt in your dough? Conventional thought seems to be that salt somewhat inhibits yeast and most predictions of fermentation times would be worked for dough with added salt, I'd expect.

Offline ShevyChase

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Re: Over fermentation issues (CY or Flour issue?)
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2019, 05:43:29 PM »
Thank you Dough Doctor for your reply, I feel very honored  :chef:. I've seen people using only Caputo's Cuoco flour without mixing and it can min reach 18h without a problem. In my case I have even added typ "0" canadian manitoba which, for what I have understood, is even stronger then regular 00. Ive seen other people here using 0.05% yeast instead of 0.5%, so my suspicion will still rely on that mostly.

PS: sorry I complete forgot, yes there is salt in my dough, I use 2% Salt

Offline BackyardPizzaiolo

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Re: Over fermentation issues (CY or Flour issue?)
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2019, 06:48:48 PM »
Can you post a picture of your over-proofed dough balls? It's hard to tell sometimes what meaning people put behind words. I know for me, my dough balls flatten a great deal, but they remain full of air and perfectly workable and give me a great pizza.

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Offline ShevyChase

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Re: Over fermentation issues (CY or Flour issue?)
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2019, 07:10:29 AM »
Gentlemen,

I fear I have failed once again  :-\... First of all I realized way to late that I dont have enough Cuoco left so the dough I did yesterday night has nearly 40% Manito type 0 in it, so I am afraid it will too much and second my scale was not able to show me the weigh of the CY below 2g, so after trying for a long time I ended up with 2g CY. What I had calculated:

Nr of doughballs: 12
Weight 240g
Hydration 61%
Yeast 0.06%
Salt 2%

Resulting in
1790g Flour (1kg Cuoco, rest Manitoba)
1090 ml water
1g Yeast ( but I ended up with 2g)
35g Salt

Since my cuoco was empty I was forced to use Manitoba to work the dough, not sure if this has an effect on the dough. I let the dough rest in bulk for 12h in 19-20C temp and it grow more then I imagined, given the fact of how little yeast I put. Now I did the doughballs and I think they will be once they reach in 6-7h already a overfermented stage, just a feeling, look for yourself

Offline HansB

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Re: Over fermentation issues (CY or Flour issue?)
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2019, 08:57:36 AM »
Do you have a cool place to put them to slow it down?
Hans

Offline ShevyChase

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Re: Over fermentation issues (CY or Flour issue?)
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2019, 11:15:42 AM »
Do you have a cool place to put them to slow it down?

Unfortunately no, no cellar, garage or whatsoever. Right now with my current batch the dough balls have risen beautifully but I can see the start of more and more bubbles so what I did is I put some ice bags (the blue medical ones  :-D) for a brief moment and now they are at about 15C, so should be perfect when I will start making pizza in ~3h

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Over fermentation issues (CY or Flour issue?)
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2019, 05:04:22 PM »
Are you saying that the dough balls represented in the picture are over fermented?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Over fermentation issues (CY or Flour issue?)
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2019, 05:09:04 PM »
With regard to weighing the yeast, if your scale will not weigh 1-gram then try this, weigh 5-grams and put it into 50-grams of water, stir well to suspend the yeast in the water and then weigh 11-grams of the suspension. Within that 11-grams of yeast suspension will be 1-gram of yeast. Discard the remainder of the suspension or make some bread with it.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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Offline ShevyChase

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Re: Over fermentation issues (CY or Flour issue?)
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2020, 10:41:16 AM »
Gentlemen,

happy new year to you all! I had no time during the holidays to post here, so a little bit late the result of my batch. Basically I had planned to start doing pizzas around 8pm my time (around 3/4hs AFTER I have posted the picture of my doughballs above) and see for your self the result in the picture. I was cooling them with icing bags constantly but suddenly within a span of 15 min maybe they collapes entirely. They tasted good and I could do beautiful pizzas, but Im still unhappy.

Are you saying that the dough balls represented in the picture are over fermented?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Sorry if my writing wasn't clear, I did not mean that the dough balls were over fermented on the picture, I just assumed they will be over fermented. And thank you for the yeast weighting technik, will test it and report back!

Currently my personal guess is that my fresh yeast is to aggressive. Any more ideas?

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Over fermentation issues (CY or Flour issue?)
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2020, 05:27:15 PM »
If your dough rises and then collapses this is what is referred to in the bread making circles as the first full rise which represents about 60% of the total amount of fermentation the flour used in the dough will tolerate before complete break down. In a case like that all you need to do is to re-ball the dough and wait for the dough balls to ferment sufficient to be opened into skins, which depending upon temperature, amount of yeast, amount of salt and flour strength can take anything from 90-minutes to several hours.
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Offline ShevyChase

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Re: Over fermentation issues (CY or Flour issue?)
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2020, 06:45:55 PM »
If your dough rises and then collapses this is what is referred to in the bread making circles as the first full rise which represents about 60% of the total amount of fermentation the flour used in the dough will tolerate before complete break down. In a case like that all you need to do is to re-ball the dough and wait for the dough balls to ferment sufficient to be opened into skins, which depending upon temperature, amount of yeast, amount of salt and flour strength can take anything from 90-minutes to several hours.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Just learned something new today, thanks yet again for helping me understand better the process. I will try tomorrow night another badge with significant less yeast with an aim of ~20h resting time.

Another point, specially in regards of the dough balls in my pic above, I notice sometimes they cant be too stretched because they tend to have tiny holes sometimes, thats why I would like to do my pizzas when the doughball isnt collapsed...

Offline BackyardPizzaiolo

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Re: Over fermentation issues (CY or Flour issue?)
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2020, 05:33:21 PM »
Another point, specially in regards of the dough balls in my pic above, I notice sometimes they cant be too stretched because they tend to have tiny holes sometimes, thats why I would like to do my pizzas when the doughball isnt collapsed...

Yes I have experienced that too, the dough becomes weaker and develops tears when stretching. It loses some elasticity too (that's welcome sometimes...) This is most likely a sign of slight over-fermentation. It's a little harder to work with, but the pizzas come out the same for me.

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