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Author Topic: Dough died or it wasn't alive in the first place?  (Read 803 times)

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Offline pizzolo

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Dough died or it wasn't alive in the first place?
« on: January 04, 2020, 03:16:31 PM »
Previously I was using the PizzApp and I was trying to achieve 24 RT fermentation, but it seems that it never works for me as my dough balls always flatten a lot and lose their shape. The flour I am using usually is Le 5 Stagioni Superiore (13% protein).

So yesterday I decided that I will use the leftover of my usual flour (10%) + 90% of some new 00 flour with W 250,12,5% protein and mix CT and RT. My setup was the following:

436g flour (100%)
271g water (62%)
13g salt (3%)
0.60g yeast (IDY, which wasn't dead, I checked)

RT 8h at 23 C (73.4 F)
CT 12h at 5 C (41F)

I am mixing everything with a mixer and then I am leaving it on the counter with a wet towel for 40-50min after some SFs (I am doing this 3 times). So the bulk that I ended up with, somehow is never quite smooth. This is my first question (1), after the third stretch and fold and rest, there are still some visible imperfections, should I try to fix that somehow?

Those tiny marks (imperfections) can be seen also on the dough balls (picture 2).

On the outside everything looked good to me, so my heart was pumping and I was so excited to eat some delicious pizza baked in the Roccbox. Well, my surprise was huge when the pie didn't rise at all in the oven! I decided to cut (attached picture) one of the balls and there were some bubbles inside. This means that there was some fermentation. Even though the dough temperature was 20C (68F) when I began to shape it, the pie was severely undercooked and it was impossible to eat it!

What did I do wrong? Maybe my yeast was to little (scale is not every precise...)? Maybe the fermentation time was more than what this flour can handle?

Greetings
« Last Edit: January 04, 2020, 03:18:38 PM by pizzolo »

Offline theodoros

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Re: Dough died or it wasn't alive in the first place?
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2020, 06:03:14 PM »
Maybe I can add a few ideas. Bear in mind i am new to the world of pizza but I enjoy bread making. Because your dough didnt rise when cooking you are having a critical issue with yeast development

Maybe some of my pointers will help.

1) the ideal temp for yeast to thrive in dough is 76F to 78F.  what was the temp of your dough
2) 0.001% yeast is very low and will require a long time for complete bulk fermentation. Maybe 18 hours plus.
3) When making bread an important step is autolyse.  Basically you mix the flour and tempered water and let it rest in a bowl for 15-30 minutes. This hydrates the flour and introduces a specific enzyme called protease and later amylase.  The yeast feeds on this and creates flavor and carbon dioxide gas.  I would add the instant yeast as well during autolyse so it gives it time to hydrate. This is specific to bread making but I dont see why it would be different to pizza dough
4) The stretch and fold technique is applied if you're hand kneading or short mixing by machine. Basically you help organize the gluten structures to allow gases to form. Usually with a 62% hydration level you need no more than 2 stretch and folds. Very wet doughs 80% hydration and up need more stretch and folds.  It can take 20 plus minutes for dough to relax between each stretch and fold
5) Looking at the first picture it doesnt seem like you shaped it correctly. The dough should be smooth and not have lumps like shown. 

I dont know what is RT and CT

Again i am fairly new here but I do enjoy making bread

Best of luck

Theo
« Last Edit: January 04, 2020, 11:05:31 PM by theodoros »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough died or it wasn't alive in the first place?
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2020, 06:17:00 PM »
I dont know what is RT and CT

Theo
Theo,

Since you are a new member, you may find this post of help:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20056.msg196875#msg196875

I believe that RT and CT are intended to apply to room temperature and cold fermentation temperature.

You might also find the forum's glossary of interest, at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html

Peter

Offline theodoros

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Re: Dough died or it wasn't alive in the first place?
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2020, 11:03:01 PM »
Theo,

Since you are a new member, you may find this post of help:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20056.msg196875#msg196875

I believe that RT and CT are intended to apply to room temperature and cold fermentation temperature.

You might also find the forum's glossary of interest, at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html

Peter

thank you for sharing. I was getting a little lost with all the abbreviations on this forum :))

Offline megan45

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Re: Dough died or it wasn't alive in the first place?
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2020, 11:00:45 AM »
2) 0.001% yeast is very low and will require a long time for complete bulk fermentation. Maybe 18 hours plus.

Uh might wanna check your math. (Hint: % = per cent[um] = per hundred)

0.6g yeast/436g flour = ___g yeast / 100g flour = ___%

;)

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Offline theodoros

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Re: Dough died or it wasn't alive in the first place?
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2020, 12:12:35 PM »
Uh might wanna check your math. (Hint: % = per cent[um] = per hundred)

0.6g yeast/436g flour = ___g yeast / 100g flour = ___%

;)

Yes yes I stand corrected  ::). 0.6 g yeast / 436 g flour x 100% = approx 0.14% IDY

thank you ;).

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Dough died or it wasn't alive in the first place?
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2020, 01:12:47 PM »
Yes yes I stand corrected  ::). 0.6 g yeast / 436 g flour x 100% = approx 0.14% IDY

thank you ;).

The other thing that you probably aren't aware of... is pizza dough isn't supposed to be mixed to full gluten development like bread is. The fact that his/her dough isn't smooth and satiny isn't an issue at all.  :)

Offline megan45

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Re: Dough died or it wasn't alive in the first place?
« Reply #7 on: January 05, 2020, 02:12:56 PM »
Based on the pics of the cut ball and the baked pie, it looks to me like the dough was past its prime and just about expired.

Ok, lots of questions: what type of mixer (planetary, diving fork, spiral, other) are you using; what's your temperature water; how long (and at what speed) did you mix; what was the dough temperature at the end of the mix? (It would help to have a side view shot of a slice showing the cornicione and an upskirt shot showing the bottom.)

Also,
I am mixing everything with a mixer and then I am leaving it on the counter with a wet towel for 40-50min after some SFs (I am doing this 3 times)

40-50 min total bench time, or 40-50 min between each of the SFs (so 120-150 min total)?

2-2.5h on the bench + 8 hs at 23C + 12 h at 5C sound excessive. At 0.13% IDY and 23C, TxCraig1's Yeast Quantity Prediction Model gives a fermentation time of 5 hours to reach full fermentation.

For what it's worth, I've settled on 62% hydration, 1.7% salt, 0.4% IDY. I target 22-23C dough temperature out of the mixer and go straight from the refrigerator for 36 hours bulk ferment at 6C, then 8 hours CF in balls, followed by 4 hour RT.

Offline pizzolo

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Re: Dough died or it wasn't alive in the first place?
« Reply #8 on: January 06, 2020, 03:08:47 AM »
Based on the pics of the cut ball and the baked pie, it looks to me like the dough was past its prime and just about expired.

Ok, lots of questions: what type of mixer (planetary, diving fork, spiral, other) are you using; what's your temperature water; how long (and at what speed) did you mix; what was the dough temperature at the end of the mix? (It would help to have a side view shot of a slice showing the cornicione and an upskirt shot showing the bottom.)

Also,
40-50 min total bench time, or 40-50 min between each of the SFs (so 120-150 min total)?

2-2.5h on the bench + 8 hs at 23C + 12 h at 5C sound excessive. At 0.13% IDY and 23C, TxCraig1's Yeast Quantity Prediction Model gives a fermentation time of 5 hours to reach full fermentation.

For what it's worth, I've settled on 62% hydration, 1.7% salt, 0.4% IDY. I target 22-23C dough temperature out of the mixer and go straight from the refrigerator for 36 hours bulk ferment at 6C, then 8 hours CF in balls, followed by 4 hour RT.

Thanks for the answer.

1. I am using Kenwood Kmix mixer with the K-beater first and then the dough hook when the dough sticks to the hook. Water is at room temperature and the finished dough was at something like 21-22 C

2. Total bench time was 40-50 min.

3. I am not doing any bulk fermentation, because I read somewhere that on such small quantities it's not doing much. Do you notice any difference if you skip the bulk and shape into balls directly? I agree that my dough might have been past its prime time, the general 00 flour that I used might be for short fermentation only? I am not sure if every flour can handle long rising times and I am not sure that it depends only on the protein %.

0.4% IDY for me would be 1,744g of yeast, which sounds a lot for any RT fermentation in my experience  :-\, my dough balls always end up flat if they are out of the fridge for more than 3 hours 
« Last Edit: January 06, 2020, 03:10:36 AM by pizzolo »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough died or it wasn't alive in the first place?
« Reply #9 on: January 06, 2020, 09:11:19 AM »

0.4% IDY for me would be 1,744g of yeast, which sounds a lot for any RT fermentation in my experience  :-\, my dough balls always end up flat if they are out of the fridge for more than 3 hours
pizzolo,

Did you mean to say 1744g of flour?

Peter

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Offline foreplease

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Re: Dough died or it wasn't alive in the first place?
« Reply #10 on: January 06, 2020, 11:31:50 AM »
pizzolo,

Did you mean to say 1744g of flour?

Peter
My take is he used a comma where we would use a period: 1.744g yeast. I was looking at this earlier wondering how big of a batch it was and came up with 436 g flour (1.744/0.004).
-Tony

Offline pizzolo

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Re: Dough died or it wasn't alive in the first place?
« Reply #11 on: January 06, 2020, 12:53:01 PM »
My take is he used a comma where we would use a period: 1.744g yeast. I was looking at this earlier wondering how big of a batch it was and came up with 436 g flour (1.744/0.004).

Yes, region settings...  :) This is the 0.4% IDY for my 100% flour in the first post (436g)

Offline foreplease

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Re: Dough died or it wasn't alive in the first place?
« Reply #12 on: January 06, 2020, 01:09:36 PM »
Yes, region settings...  :) This is the 0.4% IDY for my 100% flour in the first post (436g)
Pffft! Im not too sharp. I figured out the flour amount by using your percentage of yeast and the weight of the yeast, forgetting that you included it in your first post.  ::)
-Tony

Offline megan45

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Re: Dough died or it wasn't alive in the first place?
« Reply #13 on: January 06, 2020, 05:41:17 PM »
Comments in red.

1. I am using Kenwood Kmix mixer with the K-beater first and then the dough hook when the dough sticks to the hook. Water is at room temperature and the finished dough was at something like 21-22 C

Try dropping your water temperature. That'll drop your finish temp, which should slow fermentation. FWIW, I generally shoot for 8-10 C. YMMV.

3. I am not doing any bulk fermentation, because I read somewhere that on such small quantities it's not doing much. Do you notice any difference if you skip the bulk and shape into balls directly?

I know that "science" says that the mass effect shouldn't have a meaningful effect on small dough quantities, but my experience is that dough that's balled immediately doesn't develop as fully and is more elastic/less extensible than dough that's allowed to ferment in bulk. YMMV.

0.4% IDY for me would be 1,744g of yeast, which sounds a lot for any RT fermentation in my experience  :-\, my dough balls always end up flat if they are out of the fridge for more than 3 hours


0.4% is a lot if you're RT fermenting for any significant (> 60 min) length of time, but (for me) it's "just right" for going straight to CF right out of the mixer.

Use the yeast quantity prediction chart linked upthread to zero in on the amount of yeast to use for a RT ferment.

Offline pizzolo

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Re: Dough died or it wasn't alive in the first place?
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2020, 08:29:46 AM »
For anyone ending up here and wondering what happened - my initial guess that "Maybe the fermentation time was more than what this flour can handle?" seems to be the correct one. I did some research on the flour and saw that its W index was around 200, which definitely cannot handle longer fermentation (more than 5-6 hours)

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Offline shpedly

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Re: Dough died or it wasn't alive in the first place?
« Reply #15 on: January 29, 2020, 02:58:47 PM »
I thought 200 sounded way low, so I looked it up. If you were indeed using the red bag Superiore, the W is 330, which should have been fine.

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