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Author Topic: adding yeast to dough, does order really matter?  (Read 796 times)

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Offline quietdesperation

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adding yeast to dough, does order really matter?
« on: January 09, 2020, 01:45:45 PM »
Tom,

  Hope this finds you well! I've seen lots of conflicting recommendations for when to add IDY to dough. My sense is for the home baker, it doesn't really matter all too much but would love to have your definitive recommendation.

thanks,
jd
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world" - the hobbit, jrr tolkien

Online The Dough Doctor

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Re: adding yeast to dough, does order really matter?
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2020, 06:11:41 PM »
JD;
Well, it all depends if you are mixing your dough by hand or using a mechanical mixing device. If you are mixing the dough by hand the IDY must be suspended in warm (100F) water prior to addition. The best way is to add it to the dough water in the mixing bowl, however, if you are using a mechanical mixing device where the total mixing time will be 5-minutes or more the preferred way to add the IDY is to just add it (dry) right on top of the flour when you begin mixing. If the total mixing time will be less than 5-minutes it is recommended that the IDY be first suspended in 100F water and mixed into the dough water prior to beginning the mixing process.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: adding yeast to dough, does order really matter?
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2020, 06:37:27 PM »
QD,

Several years ago, I experimented with adding the yeast--in my case, IDY--later in the dough mixing/kneading process. This was not something original with me. I got the idea from a member petesopizza at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3587.msg30225#msg30225, and also another member by the name of giotto. My interest in adding the yeast late in the process was to extend the fermentation period of the dough. To extend that fermentation period even longer, I also used water that was colder than normal and that lowered the finished dough temperature more than normal. If you read the first few posts in the thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251;topicseen#msg33251, you will see the method of my madness. Using the combination of adding the yeast later in the dough making process and also a lower than normal finished dough temperature, I was able to make doughs that could cold ferment for far longer than normal, from six days to over a couple of weeks, all with very good end results. What I did was not something that one would find in a professional setting. Also, one in a professional setting would have to be on top of everything and not forget to add the yeast at all.

I also found that I could use more yeast than normal, despite the prolonged fermentation period, with the hope that the larger amount of yeast would produce increased oven spring.

For "normal" doughs, such as those that are to be kneaded by hand or have relatively short fermentation times, I would abide by the principles enunciated by Tom.

Peter


Offline quietdesperation

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Re: adding yeast to dough, does order really matter?
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2020, 08:53:04 PM »
- tom, thanks for that! When I first started making dough, you were good enough to provide a process for our home mixer. Eventually, the mixer broke so I made about 20 hand-kneaded pizzas until my wife purchased us a new mixer. I assumed, incorrectly I guess, that the yeast treatment would be exactly the same. So I simply added the (frozen) yeast to the dry ingredients and never noticed a difference in my bakes. So when you say if mixing by hand, "the IDY must be suspended in warm (100F) water prior to addition", I guess there was some experimentation around this? If you have a moment, could you share it?

- Peter, I'll never understand how you had the time to run through all those experiments! I'd have thought final dough temp would have a larger effect on dough life than adding yeast at the end.

best,

"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world" - the hobbit, jrr tolkien

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Re: adding yeast to dough, does order really matter?
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2020, 10:55:33 PM »
The "I" in IDY stands for INSTANT as in instant hydrating (actually just fast/rapid hydrating), so if you put the IDY in cold water the water will enter into the yeast cells and remove the glutathione from the cells before the sell walls can swell to seal in the glutathione. The 100F water promotes rapid swelling of the cell wall to limit loss of glutathione form the yeast cell(s). When glutathione is flushed from the cells the yeast isn't killed but its ability to ferment is seriously impaired PLUS glutathione is a serious reducing agent which will make a dough soft and extensible to the point where it's difficult to handle (think "dead yeast" which is used as a more consumer friendly form of L-cysteine/PZ-44).
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Offline scott r

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Re: adding yeast to dough, does order really matter?
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2020, 12:22:49 AM »
Tom, If im using really cold water (say directly from the fridge) Is it ok to hydrate the IDY in some 100 degree water and then add that to the cold water, then add the flour to that and turn on the mixer?

Also, does the same go for Fresh yeast or ADY?

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Re: adding yeast to dough, does order really matter?
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2020, 01:15:30 PM »
Scott;
Once the IDY has been hydrated or the ADY has been hydrated and activated either one can be added directly into cold water without any problem (remember, it's the hydration process that causes the problems here), once hydrated they are both just like compressed yeast/CY.
Compressed yeast/CY, since it is already hydrated, can be put directly into cold water without any problems at all.
Note:
ADY takes about 10-minutes to fully hydrate, during that time it will also activate.
IDY only takes about 3 to 5-minutes to fully hydrate so you will not see any activation during that time. This is why we say that ADY is both hydrated and activated prior to addition but IDY only needs to be suspended. When the IDY is added in this manner its performance is essentially identical to that of CY, however if you are replacing ADY with IDY you might want to both hydrate and activate the IDY prior to addition to retain the same performance/fermentation characteristics. This is really not much of an issue with regular doughs but it can be an issue with very short time doughs such as no-time dough or emergency dough.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
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Online Jon in Albany

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Re: adding yeast to dough, does order really matter?
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2020, 08:14:11 PM »
Scott;
Once the IDY has been hydrated or the ADY has been hydrated and activated either one can be added directly into cold water without any problem (remember, it's the hydration process that causes the problems here), once hydrated they are both just like compressed yeast/CY.
Compressed yeast/CY, since it is already hydrated, can be put directly into cold water without any problems at all.
Note:
ADY takes about 10-minutes to fully hydrate, during that time it will also activate.
IDY only takes about 3 to 5-minutes to fully hydrate so you will not see any activation during that time. This is why we say that ADY is both hydrated and activated prior to addition but IDY only needs to be suspended. When the IDY is added in this manner its performance is essentially identical to that of CY, however if you are replacing ADY with IDY you might want to both hydrate and activate the IDY prior to addition to retain the same performance/fermentation characteristics. This is really not much of an issue with regular doughs but it can be an issue with very short time doughs such as no-time dough or emergency dough.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
I'm really glad you enjoy hanging around here, Tom. That was a great read.

Offline quietdesperation

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Re: adding yeast to dough, does order really matter?
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2020, 09:37:46 PM »
thanks Tom! I don't have a clear sense of what happens during fermentation but have been assuming yeast reproduce in a geometric fashion. If so, would the loss of glutathione effect the initial yeast but, since the bulk of the yeast is present due to reproduction, perhaps the loss has a minor overall effect?

In any case, next bake I'll try it both ways and report back what I find.

best,
"If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world" - the hobbit, jrr tolkien

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Re: adding yeast to dough, does order really matter?
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2020, 10:16:57 PM »
Almost NONE of the yeast cells reproduce during dough fermentation, if they did we would have what is known as run away fermentation, think of it like a nuclear explosion of yeast cells, 1 becomes 2, 2 becomes 4, 4 becomes 8, 8 becomes 16, 16 becomes 32, you see the trend. Yeast cells divide by a process known as budding, within the yeast that we add there are mature cells as well as budded cells (cells partially budded with "daughter cells") as well as recently divided cells. During the fermentation process the mature cells DO NOT bud, some of the already budded cells will mature and divide but neither will reproduce, the recently budded cells may mature but they will not reproduce. Any damage done to the yeast cells due to improper hydrating will actually impact the number of cells capable of participating in what we call fermentation.
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Offline Brent-r

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Re: adding yeast to dough, does order really matter?
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2020, 12:00:48 PM »
I'm having difficulty understand how yeast cells are so reluctant to reproduce and multiply in dough but see to do it so willingly
in sourdough starters where we throw away a big part of what's in the jar and 8 hours later seem to have more than we started with.  ???
Brent

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Re: adding yeast to dough, does order really matter?
« Reply #11 on: January 12, 2020, 12:54:22 PM »
Sourdough starters are not yeast based, instead they are bacteria based and we all know, or should know how rapidly bacteria can multiply under a myriad of conditions. Yeast requires a lot of oxygen to get it to reproduce but once you get it reproducing it multiplies very fast.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: adding yeast to dough, does order really matter?
« Reply #12 on: January 12, 2020, 02:13:56 PM »

Online The Dough Doctor

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Re: adding yeast to dough, does order really matter?
« Reply #13 on: January 12, 2020, 02:50:18 PM »
Peter;
Your second reference is EXCELLENT! That's a good one for the "LIBRARY".
You never fail!
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Brent-r

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Re: adding yeast to dough, does order really matter?
« Reply #14 on: January 13, 2020, 08:16:12 AM »
looks like a great article. 

but I think I could make and eat a half dozen pizzas before I can read and absorb it  all

thanks
Brent

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: adding yeast to dough, does order really matter?
« Reply #15 on: January 13, 2020, 10:08:06 AM »
Peter;
Your second reference is EXCELLENT! That's a good one for the "LIBRARY".
You never fail!
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Tom,

I will try to find a good place to cite the article, actually, both articles.

Peter

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