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Offline ivowiblo

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Complications with dough management
« on: January 10, 2020, 12:56:05 PM »
Hi!

I'm working in trying to get a dough that doesn't stick much to my peel. Usually, when making sauced pizzas, the dough sticks and is a PITA. I usually lift it and thow some flour/semolina mix and hopefully it works. Some times it sticks too much and I have some problems launching but not major. Until today, btw.

Here is the story. I think it's a big one and full of different things. I know I should try one thing at a time, but since I'm doing pizza once a week it may represent a couple of months haha.

I do CF at around 40F (sometimes it goes to 35F or 45F and I move it in the fridge to get warmer or colder) for 3 days. The dough is nice, the taste and texture is really good. HR is 66% and I use oiled individual plastic containers. I leave them unconvered for the first 2 hours in the fridge. The style I pursue is neapolitan/pizzeria mozza. No oil in the dough, with a puffy rim.

I noticed that the dough in the containers are a little bit on the wet side, so I started to leave the lid slightly open. The result is a dough with a less wet upper side. I like it. But the bottom is wet as always.

I usually leave the upper (and drier) side facing up so the rim is bigger and airy. I found that when putting that side down, the rim is more irregular and not that big.

A couple of days ago I sanded my wooden peel with a 220 grit sandpaper and then slightly coated it with kitchen oil using a kitchen papel towel, hoping the dough will slide better. As I washed the peel with water in the past, I wanted a fresh start doing things right.

Also I added rice flour to my semolina+flour mix for the bench. Since I use rice flour with my breads, I figured it could work well. Many posts here confirmed my hypothesis.

So, the results:
  • Today I took the dough from the fridge 2:30 hs before cooking. after 2 hs, the dough external temperature was 75F. Having read that idealy it should be 70F and having 30 more minutes, I put it back in the fridge. And forgot about it :S
  • When I was about to cook, the dough was 57F. I put it near the oven and waited a couple of mins, and started to assemble the first pizza (a margherita).
  • When I started to stretch, I found a super thin spot (2 inches diameter). I usually get this spots but just when I finish and well... it's not that bad. But now it was right at the begining. I read once about adding oil to the dough so the sauce doesn't get thru, so I brushed a little bit of oil in those parts. The result is that the center of the dough disc got many big holes after I sauced and put all the toppings. It was completely lost :(
  • For the second pizza, I waited a little bit for the dough to warm. I stretched at 71F. I was super delicate and got no thin spots. The dough wasn't the easiest one to stretch so I leave it a little bit small.
  • I put more bench flour in the peel. Also, I noticed again that the upper side was super not wet so I decided to use that side down this time, so it slides better. The pizza disc was the less stickier I ever work with. It slided super easy. After cooked, the rim was more irregular and flat, and it had a lot of semolina/flour underneath.
  • The pizza has a smaller diameter that usual, so it was thicker. But it rim didn't raise much.

If you read until here, thank you so much for your patience.

The questions:
  • Is it possible that a lower temperature made it harder to stretch and that's the reason why it had those holes? Maybe the added oil made it wetter?
  • Is there a way of having a less wet dough so the upper and down sides are "dry"? I thought of putting the dough over a kitchen towel when i got them out of the fridge but I never heard of that so I guess is not a good idea. Read about wooden boxes, but don't know how to make them work for a home cook that makes 4 pizzas maximum
  • Is it possible that the extra flour I got in the bottom was because of the added rice flour?

Thank you so much!
Ivo aka The neurotic pizzaiolo

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Complications with dough management
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2020, 05:38:02 PM »
First of, after the CF period you should allow the dough to warm to 50 to 60F (internal dough ball temperature, NOT external). Since you are getting a lot of sweating in the fermentation containers I'm guessing that your finished dough temperature might be excessively high, you don't mention what it is but I'd suggest targeting 70 to 75F for the finished dough temperature (after mixing). As you are having some issues with opening the dough I's also suggest reducing the dough absorption from your present 66% to possibly 62% as this will make the dough easier to handle both during opening and on the peel, then as you become more proficient you can begin to increase the absorption incrementally (66% may be too high for your specific flour, dough management procedure or skill level). Remember that the ideal absorption is that which provides the best dough handling properties for YOU. It is NOT recommended that you oil your wood peel, this only makes the dough more difficult to slide off, instead, just use it as it is after lightly sanding and NEVER wash a wood peel, just wipe it down with a damp towel. Lastly, you don't say what the dough weight is for the size pizza you are making so we can't determine if your dough weight is correct or not. If you are not using sufficient dough weight you might be stretching the skin too thin which will significantly increase the tendency for the skin to adhere or exhibit poor release properties from the peel.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline ivowiblo

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Re: Complications with dough management
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2020, 08:47:45 PM »
As always, thanks for your response.

How do I measure the internal dough temperature? I guess with a thermometer, but is there any specific type?

I'm doing a kind of no-knead dough with a couple of stretch & folds, so it has about 12 hs of RT fermentation before it goes into the fridge and since it's summer here, I guess the final dough temperature is near the 80-85F.

After balling, the dough is not super smooth as seen in videos when people use machines. can it have something to do with the dough having a tendency to develop thin spots?

Regarding going to 62%, when I tried it the dough didn't feel easier to slide and the pizza was tough. I'm using a home gas oven and the temperature are not super high.

The dough is 218 grams for a 10in pizza.

I've been doing this dought from many months and, besides it sticks a little bit, it never got that worse. Could it be the cold dough that made it harder to open?

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Complications with dough management
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2020, 11:10:52 PM »
You will want to use a dial aka stem type thermometer to measure the internal dough ball temperature. Yes, a cold dough can/will promote sticking to the peel as a small amount of condensation can form at the interface of the peel and the dough while the skin is being dressed. If your dough is still lumpy/knotty after kneading it sounds as if you may not be kneading the dough enough, yes, this can result in holes in the skin during opening. Cold dough is definitely harder to open than warm dough. As for your dough weight, it's actually a little more than what I personally use for a 10" skin, I use 7-ounces/roughly 200-grams.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline ivowiblo

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Re: Complications with dough management
« Reply #4 on: January 11, 2020, 12:46:33 AM »
Interesting.

My procedure is:
  • Mix the dough with a spoon until all the ingredients are integrated and there is no dry flour
  • After 15-20 mins, I do 3 rounds of stretch & folds (4 in each round) every 20-30 mins
  • I leave the dough covered for about 10 hs to ferment

What would you recommend for getting a smoother dough? If "more kneading" is the answer, will it be in form of stretchs & folds, or another technique? I found that stretch & folds work nice when I do 70% HR but with 66% it's like the dough is too hard.

I'm attaching a picture of my dough balls right before putting them into the containers. That batch resulted in amazing pizza, besides some sticked to the peel.

I also found a picture of a dough ball right after falling from the container to the flour bowl. you can see the wet bottom there.

Thanks!

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Complications with dough management
« Reply #5 on: January 11, 2020, 01:27:48 PM »
I see your problem already. A 10 to 20-minute rest (fermentation period) after mixing is WWAAYY too short. Change your 10 to 20-minutes to 2-hours (or more) and I think you will find you will get a smoother dough. You need to allow time for biochemical gluten development to develop some of the gluten before the kneading process, or if you want to develop biceps like the village blacksmith you can develop the gluten through energy input (like a mechanical dough mixer does) but it will take an hour or more of continuous dough kneading to do so. I don't know about you but my biceps are just fine and I've got better things to do with my time so I always opt to let biochemical gluten development do the hard work of gluten development for me, allowing me to save my strength for dressing, baking and eating those pizzas  :-D
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline ivowiblo

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Re: Complications with dough management
« Reply #6 on: January 11, 2020, 01:49:51 PM »
Oohhh!

Will try that for sure!!

Thanks!!

Offline ivowiblo

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Re: Complications with dough management
« Reply #7 on: January 11, 2020, 02:02:22 PM »
So, to put it in my current process:
- mix
- wait at least 2hs
- sets of s&f
- rest of the bulk fermentation (6 more hs)
- ball
- fridge for 3 days


Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Complications with dough management
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2020, 02:38:54 PM »
Give it a try and let's see how it works out for you.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline ivowiblo

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Re: Complications with dough management
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2020, 10:36:32 PM »
Ok. I made a dough at 12pm and follow this advice. Now it's 12:30 am here and I balled it. It was super super smooth! super extensible (when balling) and particularly non-sticky. I will call it a huge success.

This time I'm also trying something else in terms of fermentation: I use to do CF for 3 days after balling, now it will be 12 hs at RT. It looks super promising.

Thanks!

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Offline ivowiblo

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Re: Complications with dough management
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2020, 02:16:41 PM »
The dough grew a lot. Like it filled the whole container. I was worried it was over feremented.

Buuuuuut I was super. The texture when opening it was perfect. It required just a little of bench flour. It feeled safe.

Bottom line: super good.

Thanks!!!!

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Complications with dough management
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2020, 02:55:14 PM »
Your pizza looks great!  :drool:
If you want to do some experimenting now you might try reducing the yeast level, maybe in 0.1% increments to see that improves the dough prior to opening (you indicated that it was getting big, but that's a pretty subjective term).
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline ivowiblo

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Re: Complications with dough management
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2020, 03:00:35 PM »
I was thinking about experimenting with more hydration and less yeast as the weather is getting hotter and hotter here.

Thanks!!

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Complications with dough management
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2020, 03:50:27 PM »
Why more dough absorption?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline ivowiblo

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Re: Complications with dough management
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2020, 04:10:02 PM »
The only thing I didn't like about this pizza was that the rim was more bready and tough (I posted the best picture but in general, it didn't have such big holes). Not too bad! but I got better ones in the past. Sometimes I do 66%, sometimes I do 70%. 70% gives me more air, so I'd try that. Truth is this RT dough was 0 sticky so I believe I can push HR a little bit.

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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Complications with dough management
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2020, 06:31:30 PM »
A higher dough absorption will make for a softer dough consistency which will expand even more in the bowl than your present dough, I thought that was what you were trying to control. If you want to add some tenderness to the finished crust you can also add some fat to it.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline ivowiblo

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Re: Complications with dough management
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2020, 11:27:58 PM »
I don't actually mind if it expands too much in the bowl as long as it doesn't over ferment. I'll probably reduce the amount of yeast too. Things I will probably experiment with :)

Thank you so much

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Complications with dough management
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2020, 12:02:23 AM »
Remember, change only one thing at a time!
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline ivowiblo

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Re: Complications with dough management
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2020, 09:00:58 AM »
Hello Tom,
I'm reporting back :)

I made two new batches lowering the yeast. I also couldn't resist the urge and pushed HR to 70%. I know.

So originally I used 0.2% of what I believe is ADY (without activating it, because I didn't knew at the time I started to do pizza and I found this number to work pretty constant with my previous procedure).

Now I tried with 0,15% and 0,1%.

0,15% grew MORE! weather was hotter so I guess that has much to do with it.
0,1% was perfect. Just... perfect. The size of the dough in the container was the same as the size it usually gets when CF for 3 days.

The "trick" of leaving the dough 2 hs before starting the stretchs and folds is amazing. The dough is extensible but won't tear. It keeps the sauce without leaking. It's just amazing.

My only problem now is that since it's RT and summer, the dough is too slack so it's hard to shape. Like half with have a nice rim and the other half will be flat. Or won't be round. I found that if instead of using a bowl of flour/semolina I do a pile in the bench, I have more space and can start shaping there which makes things easier. Next time I'll lower hydration back to 66%

I made a "bulk" ferment for 18 hs and then 6 hs in balls. Would it be less slacky if I did 20 + 4? I'm thinking of the gluten being a little bit less relaxed if left only 4 hs.

What I would like to know is how can I achieve in a home environment a more controlled temperature without going to the fridge. I love the fact that this "new" dough is taking only 24 hs and not 84! I'd like to avoid buying a wine cooler and I read about Craig's box with ice... maybe there's another cool trick to do so?

Thanks!

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Complications with dough management
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2020, 08:44:31 PM »
There are some good charts here that will allow you to predict the amount of yeast needed for specific room temperature fermentation, if you cannot control the room temperature your only other option, in this case, is to adjust the yeast level based on the room temperature. But be aware that there are short comings to this too in that a reduced yeast level can affect the oven spring, especially if your pizzas tend to be heavily loaded.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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