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Author Topic: All Trumps High Gluten, bromated v unbromated dough diffs  (Read 656 times)

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Offline MikesCookin

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All Trumps High Gluten, bromated v unbromated dough diffs
« on: January 16, 2020, 09:29:38 AM »
I know there’s been some discussion on this, but I’m hoping to get some clarification.  I have read that the vast majority of NY and NJ pizza shops use bromated flour.  Is this still the case?

Also, would the trace/minimal amount of bromate in the final baked dough be cause for concern?  I suspect no, just like the nitrates used in charcuterie can harm you in large amounts, as can salt for that matter.

Lastly, if you prep 2 batches of dough using the same flour/water/salt/starter/yeast amounts, use the same kneading technique and cold rise duration - the only difference being bromated flour in one batch vs unbromated in the other – is there a noticeable diff in the final product in terms of flavor, crumb, texture, etc.?

I’ve been using KA special (12.7%) and 00 flour for higher temp bakes in a Sage countertop oven.  Thinking of trying all trumps high gluten (14.2%) for longer cold rise and to see/taste any difference, but the RD in my area (Boston) sells only bromated.

Thoughts are welcomed, please.

Thanks.

Mike

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
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Re: All Trumps High Gluten, bromated v unbromated dough diffs
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2020, 01:18:51 PM »
Mike;
Yes, to the best of my knowledge, bromated flour is still the flour of choice in NY and NJ pizzerias. Bromate (a carcinogen) is converted to bromide (not a carcinogen) during the baking process and as long as the residual bromate is at 20ppb (parts per billion) or less it is deemed to be safe. At one time (back in the 60's and early 70's it was thought that all of the bromate was converted to bromide during the baking process as tests of the time couldn't detect levels as low as 20-ppb. The Japanese developed a test that could detect such low levels and the newspaper headlines were "Bromate found in baked bread" OMG! We're all going to die of cancer! The amounts being detected were in the single digit ppb range. Because of this bromate was taken off of the approved food ingredient list in many countries. The truth is that the air you breathe or the water you drink
 is more dangerous that the small amount of bromate residual in bread products.The U.S. set a limit of 20-ppb for residual bromate with a maximum limit of 50-ppm in bromated flour. Most bromated flours made today incorporate bromate at less then 15-ppm (BUT it COULD be as high as 50-ppm). At the commonly accepted <15-ppm  level you probably won't see much difference in flour performance until you really begin to stress the flour out at around 4 to 5-days (CF) or 2 to 3-days RF. NOW, if the level used is higher, all bets are off the table as bromate is a VERY EFFECTIVE DOUGH STRENGTHENER. As for flavor, the tests that we did at AIB many years ago showed no impact on finished product flavor until the bromate level exceeded 75-ppm. As for crumb structure, bromate tends to promote a closer/tighter crumb structure, especially at higher levels >20-ppm. Unless the dough is subjected to very long fermentation times or the flour is weak or a composite flour (multi-grain) bromate levels much above 40-ppm will restrict dough expansion during baking leading to a condition known as "scalping" in white pan bread production where the top crust separates from the loaf and is then pulled off at the vacuum depanner.
We used to refer to bromate as a "crutch", it was seldom ever really needed and it was used more as a precautionary measure than as an essential ingredient, with the consumer health safety concerns over potassium bromate new dough strengtheners were developed aka bromate replacers, these for all practical purposes, are just as effective as bromate but without any of the health safety implications associated with bromate and are commonly used today to help strengthen otherwise weak or highly stressed doughs.
Probably more than you wanted to know.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline MikesCookin

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Re: All Trumps High Gluten, bromated v unbromated dough diffs
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2020, 03:54:01 PM »
Tom, thanks for expanding on this.  As always, educational and informative.

Curious about this – you mentioned:
‘you probably won't see much difference in flour performance until you really begin to stress the flour out at around 4 to 5-days (CF)’
I regularly use KA special bread flour and a 4-5 day cold ferment but have gone as long as 6.  I have noticed bubbles in the longer ferment but no ‘off’ aromas or flavors in the final bake.  At what point should I expect a degradation in dough quality and would a flour like this (12.7% protein) be more susceptible to degradation during a longer cold ferment than, say a stronger flour of around 14% ?

This is a typical batch:
KA special
water 63-64%
starter 9%
salt 3%
yeast .6%

My last batch was 5 day CF and I brought the dough to room temp before baking at approx 700 deg.

Thank you.
Mike



Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: All Trumps High Gluten, bromated v unbromated dough diffs
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2020, 04:37:19 PM »
Those bubbles are perfectly normal. When your flour has been over fermented it will begin to break down and become sticky, very extensible and oven spring will be reduced, after that it just keeps getting worse until you can pour the dough. No chance of reviving it either as the gluten has been severely degraded. You won't get any "off" flavors or aromas, just a more intense fermentation flavor and aroma which some might call "off". At some point you will get off flavors and aromas but that point will be after the dough breaks down and is unmanageable so it's kind of a moot issue.
Typically, the higher the protein content the more fermentation the dough will tolerate before breaking down (assuming U.S./Canadian flours).
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: All Trumps High Gluten, bromated v unbromated dough diffs
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2020, 09:08:24 PM »
Not a dough doctor...  ;) but you seem to be using an excessive amount of yeast?? Especially since you're using a starter as well?? Maybe it's because of the high salt level??  ???

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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: All Trumps High Gluten, bromated v unbromated dough diffs
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2020, 01:05:52 AM »
Failure to cross-stack or allowing the dough to warm up to long after CF can also result in bubbles like that but those aren't too bad so I really wouldn't worry about them unless they were part of a bigger or different problem.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline MikesCookin

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Re: All Trumps High Gluten, bromated v unbromated dough diffs
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2020, 01:46:45 PM »
Thanks again for the information Tom.  Juan, the bubbles started on CF day 5 and increased as the dough went from 38 deg to room temp.  I don't believe the starter + yeast amounts are an issue - but if anyone wishes to share their amounts I'd be willing to tweak / test.  I thought of adjusting the salt down a bit but I have asked and no one has ever said the final is salty.  Again, willing to tweak, that's the beauty of testing.  And there are always people around willing to eat!  :)

-Mike

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