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Author Topic: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity  (Read 1373 times)

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Offline Yael

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Re: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity
« Reply #20 on: April 08, 2020, 08:41:46 PM »
I forgot about this thread, and I made the above 48H RTF test, but it was a failure: dough burst like in the picture (I don't remember exactly at what time, maybe around 30H).

Then I tried with 0.5% SD, but it burst too, only later. Reballing was no use.
I would need to add less than 0.5%, but for a 500g flour batch that wuld be less than 2.5g, it's hard to measure it (it's not like dry yeast, sourdough sticks to the bowl, and you can't be sure of the exact weight  :-X).

So I made a pause with 48H RTF SD tests  :-D
« Last Edit: April 08, 2020, 08:46:09 PM by Yael »
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Offline typicalsam

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Re: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity
« Reply #21 on: April 21, 2020, 06:10:37 PM »
Hi Yael

I had the same problem with weighing the starter in small quantities

I weigh now weight it in a plastic scoop that came in a packet of whey protein. I then swish this around in the bowl of water until eventually all the starter disolves into the water. To check its all gone in, I then weigh the scoop on the scales to check it then measures as 0.

However, you're certainly more experienced than me and this may not be useful depending on your work flow.

Sam

Offline Yael

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Re: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2020, 10:28:19 AM »
Hi Sam,
That can be a solution, thanks! I would measure it in a bowl, and use water from the formula to rinse the bowl then put it back in the mixer bowl... I think your solution will lose less water than mine (a small amount of water would "stick" to the bowl) (well I know, I can use a scraper, etc... Maybe next time  ;D).
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Offline Yael

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Re: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2020, 10:33:55 PM »
I tried again 48H RTF SD, but it failed again.
Actually, when I balled after 24H RTF, the dough was looking quite good, and as I was afraid to have the same problem (and/or the dough being ready before baking time), I decided to leave it outside overnight. It was 14-15°C the evening, and the dough were at 15°C the morning, I guess it dropped around 9-10°C during the night. The dough hadn't moved a bit.
So I left it at again at RT all day long (20-20.5°C), and the evening... They didn't inflate at all (fortunately I had another dough so I could make pizza for my guests). I decided to leave them in the kitchen at RT one more night, and this morning... They were bursting like in the photo above!

Formula:
Flour (local wholewheat, I think around 15% protein, it absorbs a lot, I think I will tell about it more later) 100% (including 0.1% from the SD)
Water 72% (including 0.1%  from the SD)
SD 0.2% (I did the technique above, thanks typicalsam ;))
salt 2.5%

It's really a shame because dough looked good at 24H. I'll try again...  :-D
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Offline fyn

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Re: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity
« Reply #24 on: June 26, 2020, 04:28:59 PM »
Hi Yael - I've only been making sourdough pizza for a short time, but have been baking sourdough bread for 7-8 years. I don't think I'd be able to make a 48 RTF sourdough. My current recipe is 3% SD starter and that is marginally overproofed after the 24h RTF. I think if you wanted to shoot for 48 hours you would have to lower the temperature significantly, maybe for the entire fermentation period. Much of this depends on how old/active your starter is. Good luck!

-Dave

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Offline Yael

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Re: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity
« Reply #25 on: June 27, 2020, 01:30:21 AM »
Hi Dave,

Thanks for your input!
Last time I failed a 24H RTF dough, but afterwards I realized that the SD I used wasn't properly refreshed (one or 2 more times would have been needed) and was very acidic, result: the dough teared like pictures above, before reaching 24H.

Recently I had great results for bread and pizza with a same-day 40% SD bread and 24H CF 30% SD pizza + malt. It's hot now, so the SD has a good activity.

Bread:
My usual Russian flour (yellow bag, 10.3% protein) 100%, including 20% from SD
Water 65% including 20% from SD
SD 40%
Salt 2%
Malt 0.5%

RTF 6.5H @27°C

Pizza:
Same flour 100%, including 15% from SD
Water 65% including 15% from SD
SD 30%
Salt 2.5%
Malt 0.5%

CF overnight + 7H RTF @27°C.

The malt helped getting a very nice crust in both cases.

I'm making +/- the same without malt (500°C bake this time) and with less SD (5%) for a ~22H RTF, bake is tonight!
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Offline Yael

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Re: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity
« Reply #26 on: June 27, 2020, 09:08:01 AM »
As mentioned above, tonight's bake, remark and thoughts:

Dough was made for a 22H-ish RTF, but was ready 1.5H to 2H before baking. RT around 26°C, 5% SD was too much. I didn't check the notes of my previous tests thoroughly  :-X

So the gluten was starting to tear, I made 10' instead of 12' (250g balls).
The Margherita teared, but the 2 others were passable.
Taste was good, but texture  :-X With the weak gluten, I can't say there was a nice oven spring. The leoparding was quite nice though..

The second pizza was a... let's say "couscous" pizza, made with some kind of chicken couscous leftover. It was actually good!
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Offline texmex

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Re: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity
« Reply #27 on: June 27, 2020, 10:10:50 AM »
I thought you were already a pro with the sourdough.  I find that my SD is happier when I use it a lot, because it is getting refreshed and remains robust. One week of not using it, and cold storage, the first few feedings really don't cut the acidity very well.  I also have 2 separate jars of the same starter, and one jar goes acidic faster than the other. I actually got rid of the contents of that jar, got a brand new clean jar and split the other starter into that clean jar. Fed them both and omehow, I still have a very nice starter, and a very acidic starter.  ???
Reesa

Offline Yael

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Re: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity
« Reply #28 on: June 27, 2020, 08:36:11 PM »
I thought you were already a pro with the sourdough.  I find that my SD is happier when I use it a lot, because it is getting refreshed and remains robust. One week of not using it, and cold storage, the first few feedings really don't cut the acidity very well.  I also have 2 separate jars of the same starter, and one jar goes acidic faster than the other. I actually got rid of the contents of that jar, got a brand new clean jar and split the other starter into that clean jar. Fed them both and omehow, I still have a very nice starter, and a very acidic starter.  ???

Haha, well SD doesn't want me to be a pro  ;D

"I find that my SD is happier when I use it a lot"
Yes that's weird about the quantity, as I also mentioned in another thread of mine (reply 19 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=61049.msg610928#msg610928), I liked the result with a shorter fermentation meaning with more SD, and as said above, the CF with 30-40% SD works better for me.

When I made this last test the day before yesterday, the SD was a little bit foaming (and usually it was bad sign), but under the foam was still this sort of network (I'll have to take a picture one day), so I thought "ok, good".
Oh and another problem I didn't say on my previous post, the FDT was 31°C instead of 25-26°C, so that was quite hot and obviously gave too much boost.

So you mean that you still kept 2 starters, and the 2nd one kept turning acidic? That's strange! Do you think it's because of the jar itself (was it the same BTW?)?
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Offline fyn

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Re: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity
« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2020, 12:17:15 AM »
Foam on my sourdough tells me it's a little past ripe, but still usable. I've seen here in a few threads that people will stir the liquid or 'hooch' back into their starters - I never do that. I pour it out before refeeding my starter. I will say that I rarely let my starter get to that point if I've created a levain to use. This isn't the most scientific approach (sorry!) but when I time my starter for use by I determine it's ready to use when it's reached it's max volume increase, and has just started "deflating".

What are you all feeding your starters with? The flour you use to feed the starter can have a significant affect on its activity and flavor. According to "Modernist Bread" lactic acid is a more nuanced and elegant acidity, while acedic acid is more 'astringent'.

Flour-
White Flour - lactic acid dominates over acedic acid
Whole wheat - acedic acid dominates over lactic acid
Rye Flour - acedic acid dominates over lactic acid
Durum Flour - lactic acid flavor but sweeter

Hydration -
Increasing hydration - reduces lactic acid acidity but increases leavening
Decreasing hydration - increases acedic acid but decreases leavening

Storage Temp -
Room temp or warmer - decreases lactic acid acidity but increases leavening
cooler temp - increases acedic acidity but decreases leavening

Feeding frequency -
more often - less acidity
less often - more acidity

Looking at this information, I realize I follow virtually every method that increases acedic acid, and makes it very acidic. I feed with whole wheat flour, store my starter in my refrigerator, and feed it once a week. I do maintain a 1:1 ratio though, so the hydration is standard. My bread is a bit sour, but has great spring and crumb.

I did experience something odd the one time I fed my starter (1:1) with 00 flour. It got active like I had just given it super soldier serum, and although I fed it with a 1:1 ratio, it turned into a liquid within a couple hours at room temp. I suspect it had something to do with how refined the flour was and the availability of the glucose for the bacteria. I freaked out and added flour to it until it was the consistency I was expecting.  :-[

My loaf yesterday:

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Offline texmex

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Re: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity
« Reply #30 on: June 28, 2020, 05:02:08 AM »
Haha, well SD doesn't want me to be a pro  ;D

"I find that my SD is happier when I use it a lot"
Yes that's weird about the quantity, as I also mentioned in another thread of mine (reply 19 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=61049.msg610928#msg610928), I liked the result with a shorter fermentation meaning with more SD, and as said above, the CF with 30-40% SD works better for me.

When I made this last test the day before yesterday, the SD was a little bit foaming (and usually it was bad sign), but under the foam was still this sort of network (I'll have to take a picture one day), so I thought "ok, good".
Oh and another problem I didn't say on my previous post, the FDT was 31°C instead of 25-26°C, so that was quite hot and obviously gave too much boost.

So you mean that you still kept 2 starters, and the 2nd one kept turning acidic? That's strange! Do you think it's because of the jar itself (was it the same BTW?)?

Well, by a lot, I meant often (as in baking 2 or 3 times a week instead of just once because the SD is being fed more often I guess) , not so much the quantity used at one time. But I did many experiments with large quantities in the past, and did well with that.  I have not made SD starter dough in more than a week, so I will have to feed multiple times to get it ready again.
Yes, I threw that acidic SD away, got a clean new jar and put half of the good starter in the new jar, fed them both, and next day I still had a sweet SD and a sour SD.  It is a mystery how this could happen. Maybe the one is jealous that it doesn't get a blue rubberband, since I only had a beige rubberband to put around it.  LOL. My 2 jars are very small (hold 50g of starter and room for expansion) I keep 2 in case 1 goes rogue...

Fyn that is good info.  Thanks!
As far as feeding, I use All Purpose white flour most of the time (once per week/fridge). If I haven't used any SD for awhile, I will give it a bit of whole wheat to wake it up at room temp, then discard all but a tiny amount and give it all purpose again 1 or 2 more times at RT, and it is happy and ready to use again. I have never tried any 00 flours, but the liquid aspect explains why many people talk about a liquid 1:1 starter  They must be using 00 flours. Mine is always thick enough to remain stuck to the jar, but it has never been a liquid at that level.
Reesa

Offline ARenko

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Re: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity
« Reply #31 on: June 28, 2020, 09:48:02 AM »
I have never tried any 00 flours, but the liquid aspect explains why many people talk about a liquid 1:1 starter  They must be using 00 flours. Mine is always thick enough to remain stuck to the jar, but it has never been a liquid at that level.
When I was first activating my Camoldoli starter (100% hydration) I used Kroger brand AP flour - it was liquid.  Due to Covid shortages I switched to KAAP and it stiffened up like you describe.  I've switched back to the Kroger AP and it's remained stiff (although maybe that's just my impression since I keep it in the fridge and feed it once a week).  Recently started my Ischia with Kroger AP and it's been liquid up until yesterday when I went to make some dough - it was stiff, but then I had just fed it 5 or 6 hours earlier where it had normally been 12-24 hours between feedings.  I'm not sure what to make of all that, but anyway, when I had the sudden stiffening with the Kroger AP/ KAAP switch I asked about in on the forum.  Tom Lehman replied about the flour's potential role...

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=61685.msg614907#msg614907
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 09:49:42 AM by ARenko »

Offline texmex

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Re: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity
« Reply #32 on: June 28, 2020, 10:27:37 AM »
That is great info ARenko! Thank you. 
I am sure Yael appreciates this info as well,  to try keeping our starters in prime condition.
Like my starter loves a revival from being stale and abused by using whole wheat, but it gets really acidic, and I have to tame it way down by using bleached and enriched AP.  I may start feeding it with an unbleached AP just to see what happens. ::)
Reesa

Offline Yael

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Re: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity
« Reply #33 on: June 28, 2020, 09:25:15 PM »
Fyn,

Thank you for the info, and nice bread!
I came to the same conclusion about the foam and the use of my starter, but as I expressed above, it seems that it works better with a lot of SD over a short fermentation time than a little bit SD over a long fermentation one... That would be too much acidity? It would make sense...

I thought the room T° gave a more lactic acidity, but in fact it just decreases acetic acidity?
It's kind of surprising that a lot of parameters give more acetic acidity whereas we seem to seek a more lactic one (as you wrote, acetic is more "astringent"). Another difficulty to handle  ;D

ARenko,

I did change the flour for my SD (see the first posts of this thread), and there seemed to be a difference. I've always been told that you can use any flour you want... But I think that, regarding white flours, the protein content can change the behavior. After all, and correct me if I'm wrong, acidity attacks protein/gluten (among others) so the more there are, the "stronger" will be the SD, right? I also seemed to notice a change when changing bottle water for boiled water. I guess the boiled tap water is also harder than bottle water, giving more strength to the SD...

Reesa,

I do appreciate all of you guys coming here to help me  :P
Oh ok I misread your meaning about the quantity of use VS frequency, sorry  ::)

I wasn't supposed to be at home today so I put my SD in the fridge yesterday, but I think I'll have to take it out  ;D
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 09:27:19 PM by Yael »
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Offline ARenko

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Re: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity
« Reply #34 on: June 28, 2020, 09:35:44 PM »


ARenko,

I did change the flour for my SD (see the first posts of this thread), and there seemed to be a difference. I've always been told that you can use any flour you want... But I think that, regarding white flours, the protein content can change the behavior. After all, and correct me if I'm wrong, acidity attacks protein/gluten (among others) so the more there are, the "stronger" will be the SD, right? I also seemed to notice a change when changing bottle water for boiled water. I guess the boiled tap water is also harder than bottle water, giving more strength to the SD...

Yael, I haven't delved much yet into the science of flour or pizza yet, but yeah, from what Tom told me in the link I posted protein has an effect.  Regarding tap water vs bottled, I'm not sure - boiling water should precipitate the calcium carbonate and make it softer, but whether it's softer than bottled I don't know. 

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Offline ochsavidare

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Re: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2020, 08:04:22 AM »
Dough was made for a 22H-ish RTF, but was ready 1.5H to 2H before baking. RT around 26°C, 5% SD was too much. I didn't check the notes of my previous tests thoroughly  :-X

Last time I was also fermenting at ~26°C, and I used 0.5% SD and it still was done fermenting ~20h. So I would say that your assessment of 5% being too much is correct :)

Offline Yael

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Re: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity
« Reply #36 on: June 29, 2020, 08:39:29 AM »
Last time I was also fermenting at ~26°C, and I used 0.5% SD and it still was done fermenting ~20h. So I would say that your assessment of 5% being too much is correct :)

Only 0.5% for ~20H RTF?  :o Even at 26°C it looks a lot to me!

As I mentioned (somewhere), for 24H RTF I had successful results from 3% to 6% SD. I think 3% would have been good under this RT. 6% was for a cooler T°.
But 0.5% for you, I'm still surprised! Is your SD the "super active" kind? I'd love to see a pic of its peak.
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Offline ochsavidare

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Re: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity
« Reply #37 on: June 29, 2020, 09:19:05 AM »
Only 0.5% for ~20H RTF?  :o Even at 26°C it looks a lot to me!
It is in rough agreement with Craig's chart (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0), but I had had a couple of weeks of 1 pizza session + 1 bread session per week so maybe that made it extra active (my sourdough is ~6 years old, and maybe that affect things as well).

As I mentioned (somewhere), for 24H RTF I had successful results from 3% to 6% SD. I think 3% would have been good under this RT. 6% was for a cooler T°.
But 0.5% for you, I'm still surprised! Is your SD the "super active" kind? I'd love to see a pic of its peak.

I just moved so my apartment is a total mess so might be a week until my next bake but I'll snap some pics if I remember :)
Anyway, If 3-6% works for you, that's great, in the end it's the final result that matters :)

Offline Yael

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Re: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2020, 01:39:08 AM »
I'll have to make more tests anyway  ;D
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Offline ochsavidare

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Re: Sourdough - problem(s) of activity
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2020, 05:54:28 AM »
I'll have to make more tests anyway  ;D

Isn't that what's fun anyway  ;D :chef:

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