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Offline LordBacon

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Dough structure tips
« on: February 29, 2020, 12:35:04 PM »
Finally moved out of NYC to a place where I can have a high temp oven again and made neo dough for the first time in years. Generally speaking what does the structure of the dough in the pic mean? Not enough gluten formed? Not enough kneading? Too much?

Mixed in Bosch Compact with dough hook for 5 min on slow, then kneaded, rest, stretch and fold with rests, then bulk ferment at 60 for 24 hours, 36 balled.

100% AP
63% H20
3% salt
0.04% IDY

New Roccbox surely rescued the amateur dough though to be better than our local pizzeria!

« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 12:58:56 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline mkevenson

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Re: Dough structure tips
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2021, 10:59:53 AM »
LordBacon, what's your answer?
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Offline LordBacon

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Re: Dough structure tips
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2021, 11:13:47 AM »
Never heard from anyone so not sure what was wrong? That being said, I started using 00 flour this summer, do only room temp fermenting, and that seems to help make better dough for me.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough structure tips
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2021, 01:08:12 PM »
Lord Bacon,

As a point of clarification, did you also ferment the individual dough balls at 60 degrees F for the additional 36 hours, for a total of 60 hours at 60 degrees F? Also, can you tells us the brand of all purpose flour you used, and also how much dough by weight and the number of dough balls you made?

Peter


Offline LordBacon

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Re: Dough structure tips
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2021, 02:23:22 PM »
Peter,

That's correct on fermenting front. It was nearly a year ago but I believe it was KA AP flour, around 700 total grams, 5 balls.

Was mostly curious if that is a common faulty dough structure and there were a common cause.

Thanks!

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Offline mmille24

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Re: Dough structure tips
« Reply #5 on: January 14, 2021, 02:45:15 PM »
How long are you resting between stretch and folds?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough structure tips
« Reply #6 on: January 14, 2021, 03:48:53 PM »
Peter,

That's correct on fermenting front. It was nearly a year ago but I believe it was KA AP flour, around 700 total grams, 5 balls.

Was mostly curious if that is a common faulty dough structure and there were a common cause.

Thanks!
Lord Bacon,

Based on the additional information you provided, I believe that your dough may have overfermented.

To begin, if you used the KAAP flour, it has a rated absorption value of 61 +/- 2%. This is a value that I was given by King Arthur itself, as I so noted some time ago in a post at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4646.msg39204.html#msg39204

Generally speaking, starting out with the rated absorption of a given flour is a good idea, as I so noted in the above cited post. So, in using the KAAP, I would start with an absorption value of 61%. Going higher, as you did, will cause the dough to ferment somewhat faster and might also lead to an overall wetter dough that is harder to handle.

Another possible cause of overfermentation in your case is the amount of yeast. You used 0.04% IDY. However, if you look at member Craig's chart at Reply 188 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg349349#msg349349 (click to enlarge), and for a rough estimate using a total fermentation time of 60 hours at a temperature of 60 degrees F, you will see that the amount of yeast to use for that application is roughly 0.02% IDY, or about half of what your used. If that number is correct, then the dough would ferment quite a bit faster, ultimately resulting in an additional cause of overfermentation.

I should also note here that your 700 grams of dough translates into about 24.7 ounces, or about 1.5 pounds. That means that each of the five dough balls weighs about 4.9 ounces. Both of those weights are on the low side and both doughs will ferment quite fast at 60 degrees F.  So, if I am correct on the hydration and yeast issues, I would suspect that your dough overfermented. If that is so, then you might reduce the hydration value you used to around 61% and also reduce the amount of yeast you used, as I stated above. In practice, you may find that you may have to adjust one or both of those values even further, until you achieve the results you desire.

In retrospect, I perhaps should have also asked you what size pizzas you made with the dough formula you posted. You could also experience dough handling problems if the dough skins were too thin for the size of pizza and therefore harder to handle.

I also noticed that you posted on the Neapolitan board. While it is true that an all purpose flour can be used to make a Neapolitan style pizza, ideally you need an oven that can achieve a temperature in excess of 800 degrees F. If the Roccbox oven you have can deliver that temperature, you might be in good shape. But even then you might experience problems since the KAAP is a malted flour. The most common flour for the Neapolitan style is a 00 flour.

Peter

Offline LordBacon

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Re: Dough structure tips
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2021, 04:02:16 PM »
I think you're right on the over fermenting. Using 00 flour has helped a lot starting this summer with my Roccbox which indeed gets north of 800 F. That 700 grams was just for the flour by the way, so once water is added I get balls right around 230 grams.

I've read somewhere on this site (Dough Doc?) that fermentation builds all the relevant gluten vs kneading but assume that's not widely accepted.

I do struggle with balling and then opening said dough balls but again the 00 flour, shorted fermenting time, and great oven make up for a lot of these errors.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough structure tips
« Reply #8 on: January 14, 2021, 04:18:32 PM »
I think you're right on the over fermenting. Using 00 flour has helped a lot starting this summer with my Roccbox which indeed gets north of 800 F. That 700 grams was just for the flour by the way, so once water is added I get balls right around 230 grams.

I've read somewhere on this site (Dough Doc?) that fermentation builds all the relevant gluten vs kneading but assume that's not widely accepted.

I do struggle with balling and then opening said dough balls but again the 00 flour, shorted fermenting time, and great oven make up for a lot of these errors.
Lord Bacon,

Ah, I see that I misconstrued your numbers. I thought that you were giving three answers to three of the questions I asked (brand of flour, total dough weight, and number of dough balls).

As for the fermentation issue you raised and its relationship to gluten development, Tom Lehmann wrote often on this matter. Here is a typical post by Tom:

Reply 5 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=44658.msg448301#msg448301

If you decide to proceed further with your pizza making taking the above posts into consideration, I hope you will return with your results. That is how we all learn.

Peter

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