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Author Topic: Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice  (Read 669 times)

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Offline dselimovic

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Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice
« on: March 17, 2020, 05:38:51 PM »
Hello fellow pizza lovers!

I'm new to this forum and pizza making in general. I have recently purchased PP Ardore oven with Saputo stones. The oven seems great but I would like to step up my game and make much better pizzas with it. I prefer Neapolitan style.

This is how I made my dough:

100% Caputo 00 Pizzeria
60% Cold water
3% Sea salt
0.2% Fresh yeast

After mixing ingredients and kneading, I put the dough into fridge and let it bulk ferment for about 8 hours. Then I removed the dough from the fridge and let it ferment at room temperature for about 4 hours. After that I balled the dough into dough balls and let them rest for about 10 hours (room temperature).

Dough Top.jpg and Dough Bottom.jpg show how the dough balls looked before baking.

I preheated the oven for a little over an hour and these were the temperatures measured by the IR thermometer:
Left stone, rear side: ~515C (a few cm from the rear edge)
Left stone, center: ~500C
Left stone, front: ~445C (a few cm from the front edge)
Right stone, rear side: ~500C (a few cm from the rear edge)
Right stone, center: ~470C
Right stone, front: ~430C (a few cm from the front edge)

I didn't reduce the flame for the entire baking process. The flame was maxed out from preheating until I made the last pizza. The baking procedure was as follows:
1. Put the pizza in and let it bake for around 30-35s.
2. Turn the pizza counter clockwise for about 45 degrees and let it bake for around 10s.
3. Repeat step 2. two more times.
The total baking time was around 80-90s.

This is a link to video of my Ardore running with maxed out flame:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1SGydSPq0zyfvJHked8R4FYORcGIkPFIQ/view?usp=sharing

I've made two pizzas and the results can be seen in the attachments.

The pizzas ended up being okay.

These are my questions:
1. Is it ok to have the full flame all the time since documentation for the oven says that flame should be reduced after baking pizza and maxed after putting pizza into the oven? I had the flame maxed out all the time because I was having a hard time reaching 480C+ if I lower the flame.
2. I'm not satisfied with color and texture of cornicione. I would like to get lighter color with charred spots. Is there any advice on this?
3. It seems that inside of the dough ended up being a little bit undercooked and the top of the cornicione burnt at some places. This is my greatest concern. What am I doing wrong?
4. I would like the cornicione to be more airy. Currently it is dense and requires a lot of chewing. Is there any advice on how to achieve this?

I would appreciate any help from you guys.

Thanks,
Dini
« Last Edit: March 17, 2020, 05:42:02 PM by dselimovic »

Offline ARenko

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Re: Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2020, 01:20:50 PM »
My first thought is your yeast quantity/ fermentation time are off.  It depends on your final dough temp, but .2% fresh yeast for 8 hours in the fridge is doing almost nothing and unless your room temp is over 80F you're not getting much additional fermentation out of the 4 hours room temp.  This could be related to your points 3 & 4, but others can probably better answer than me.  Try using TXCraig's chart...

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg511590#msg511590

I often find myself doing the opposite - full flame before and between bakes and reduced flame during bake.  I have saputo tiles.

In my experience floor temps are similarly variable across the floor.

Offline dselimovic

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Re: Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2020, 03:32:38 AM »
Thanks ARenko! I'll try 24h fermentation at 15C on average with 0.2% of fresh yeast. Assuming the amount of fresh yeast is 3x the amount of IDY, this should be more inline with TXCraig's chart.

Do you know what is the recommened split on bulk/balled fermentation durations? I've seen people using various splits such as 12/12, 24/24, 36/12 but I don't understand pros and cons of each split.

I'll try lowering the flame during the bake. Does lowering the flame increase your baking time?

Thanks!  :)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2020, 04:13:38 AM by dselimovic »

Offline ARenko

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Re: Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2020, 07:27:47 AM »
Lowering the flame helps me slow things down a bit (still 60-90s range) and keep from burning the top.  Sometimes I go all out flame, but then I feel like I constantly rotate the pizza after the first 20 seconds. You don't seem to have too much top heat so I'm not sure lowering the flame will help.

People do all kinds of splits and I haven't delved deep enough into the details.  For me it's usually just about timing (e.g. I make dough night before and ball it before going to work = 12/12 or something close to it).  But I've done 18/6, 20/4, etc...  All seemed to work fine.  If I paid more attention or had more experience I might notice subtle differences, but I'm not at that level of obsession yet.  I'd suggest 12/12 or whatever is convenient timewise and experiment over time with different times if you want.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2020, 08:55:08 AM »
What technique are you using to open your dough? Are you flattening out the cornicione in the process?

You might use less yeast and extend the fermentation a bit. Maybe try 2 days in the fridge or 24 hours at room temp.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline dselimovic

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Re: Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2020, 09:33:24 AM »
Lowering the flame helps me slow things down a bit (still 60-90s range) and keep from burning the top.  Sometimes I go all out flame, but then I feel like I constantly rotate the pizza after the first 20 seconds. You don't seem to have too much top heat so I'm not sure lowering the flame will help.

People do all kinds of splits and I haven't delved deep enough into the details.  For me it's usually just about timing (e.g. I make dough night before and ball it before going to work = 12/12 or something close to it).  But I've done 18/6, 20/4, etc...  All seemed to work fine.  If I paid more attention or had more experience I might notice subtle differences, but I'm not at that level of obsession yet.  I'd suggest 12/12 or whatever is convenient timewise and experiment over time with different times if you want.

I'll try to lower the flame just to see what happens.

12/12 split is what I'm currently experimenting with. What I've noticed is that after 12 hours, dough is much warmer than room temperature. I guess this is caused by many chemical reactions taking place in the greater mass than it would be the case in the dough balls.

I've attached pictures of dough after 12 hours of bulk fermentation and balls just before going on another 12 hours. It seems that bulk dough almost doubled in volume. I'm not sure if this is right. It reduced in volume as soon as I started to remove it from container. This is the dough recipe:

100% Caputo 00 Pizzeria
65% Cold water
3% Sea salt
0.2% Fresh yeast

This time, I've increased hydration from 60% to 65%. I've made dough for 3 pizzas.

Thank you!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2020, 09:55:43 AM by dselimovic »

Offline dselimovic

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Re: Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2020, 09:53:59 AM »
What technique are you using to open your dough? Are you flattening out the cornicione in the process?

You might use less yeast and extend the fermentation a bit. Maybe try 2 days in the fridge or 24 hours at room temp.

When I remove ball dough from container, I put it on the floured bench bottom side facing up. I put a little bit of flour onto dough ball and start pushing it with my finger palms from the center towards the cornicione. I try not to flatten the cornicione. I stop around 2cm from the edge when pushing the dough ball. Then I repeat this with top side of ball dough facing up (except adding additional flour since the top side of the dough has already been floured). After that, I stretch the dough to desired size, trying not to touch the cornicione.

I'm currently experimenting with 12/12 fermentation at room temperature. I've attached pictures of the dough after first 12h in the previous post.

I'll post additional pictures of dough after full 24h fermentation. I'll post pictures of pizza before/after baking too.

Thanks TXCraig1! I appreciate the help!
« Last Edit: March 19, 2020, 10:01:18 AM by dselimovic »

Online jsaras

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Re: Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice
« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2020, 07:13:21 PM »
Iím having good results with 240 gram dough balls stretched to 11-inches.  I launch with the hot spot at 454-468C (850-875F) with the flame full open and bake times at 60-70 seconds plus some doming.
Things have never been more like today than they are right now.

Offline dselimovic

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Re: Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2020, 04:24:37 AM »
Iím having good results with 240 gram dough balls stretched to 11-inches.  I launch with the hot spot at 454-468C (850-875F) with the flame full open and bake times at 60-70 seconds plus some doming.

Thanks jsaras! Taken into consideration :)

Offline dselimovic

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Re: Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2020, 04:35:08 AM »
The pizza ended up being a bit better. Next time I'll try lowering the yeast amount and prolonging the fermentation time as suggested by TXCraig1.

I've attached pictures of dough balls after 12/12 RT fermentation and pizza after baking.

These are the videos of dough opening and baking:





Any advice is appreciated.

Thank you all for help!

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Offline tkmcmichael

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Re: Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2020, 09:43:01 AM »
Looks pretty good to me!!

Offline dselimovic

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Re: Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2020, 01:06:24 PM »
Looks pretty good to me!!

Thanks tkmcmichael! I wish cornicione to be more puffed up and airy instead of dense and chewy.

Offline tkmcmichael

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Re: Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2020, 02:07:19 PM »
Thanks tkmcmichael! I wish cornicione to be more puffed up and airy instead of dense and chewy.
And thatís why we continue to make pizza. There is almost always something we think we can improve on.

Offline dselimovic

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Re: Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2020, 02:21:08 PM »
And thatís why we continue to make pizza. There is almost always something we think we can improve on.

Exactly! :pizza:

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2020, 12:05:51 PM »
I think the saputo deck is actually might be a slight negative in Adore for Neapolitan. I have both the stock and saputo decks. The stock deck is so well balanced, I've never even opened the package with the saputo tiles. With the low dome, the saputo may not be conductive enough to balance the top heat. I run the oven wide open with the stock tiles and get 45-50 second bakes.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 12:07:24 PM by TXCraig1 »
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

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Offline dselimovic

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Re: Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2020, 02:19:43 PM »
I think the saputo deck is actually might be a slight negative in Adore for Neapolitan. I have both the stock and saputo decks. The stock deck is so well balanced, I've never even opened the package with the saputo tiles. With the low dome, the saputo may not be conductive enough to balance the top heat. I run the oven wide open with the stock tiles and get 45-50 second bakes.

That was my concern when I was ordering Ardore with saputo floor. I guess I should try to order refractory bricks when this pandemic ends. I hope PP sells refractory bricks separately since I've seen only saputo bricks on the shop page.

Wow, 45-50 bakes in Ardore... can you please tell me which temp the stock floor gets up to in the Ardore? Is doming required?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2020, 02:51:20 PM »
Around 900F with a bit of doming in the last 10 seconds or so.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline dselimovic

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Re: Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2020, 02:52:47 PM »
Around 900F with a bit of doming in the last 10 seconds or so.

Thanks! I've never thought that conductivity can have such an impact since saputo floor can also get to that temperatures.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 02:54:43 PM by dselimovic »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice
« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2020, 03:00:53 PM »
Conductivity is hugely important in the heat balance equation at Neapolitan temps. The stock stone is moving heat about 2-3X faster than the saputo.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline dselimovic

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Re: Neapolitan pizza with PP Ardore advice
« Reply #19 on: March 22, 2020, 03:04:34 PM »
Conductivity is hugely important in the heat balance equation at Neapolitan temps. The stock stone is moving heat about 2-3X faster than the saputo.

Thanks TXCraig1, I'll definitely try out the stock stone.

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