what went wrong here!? (pics included)

[mikewp318]

I recently used my SD starter for the first time to create two Neapolitan doughs. One was a 24 hour RT ferment and the other an 8 hour RT ferment - both had different kneading techniques as well. They both turned out decent, but the crust was dense and gummy in both. What do you guys think went wrong? See all relevant details and pictures below!

Dough A (8 hr)
Total Fermentation: 8 hours (4.5 hours in bulk; 3.5 hours balled) all at 70F / 21C
Recipe:
-500g Caputo 00 Pizzeria
-315g warm water (63%)
-100g SD starter (20%)
-15g salt (3%)

Dough Technique
-Mixed warm water with SD starter and then flour
-Rested for 30 minutes (autoylse) 
-Mixed in salt and remaining water, transferred dough to bowl for bulk fermentation
-For kneading, I utilized Tartine's technique of doing dough turns in the bowl every 30 minutes for first ~4 hours of bulk fermentation
-Balled after 4.5 hours bulk, then cooked pizza 3.5 hours later

Roccbox Technique
Put Roccbox oven on highest setting and let temp rise to 752F / 400C, then turned setting to lowest temperature for about 10 more minutes to let core temp stabilize. Once ready to bake the pizzas I put setting back to highest level and cooked at about 850F / 455C for ~90 seconds.

Conclusion
Of these two doughs this was the clear winner. The crust was less dense and less gummy vs. dough B, yet still suffered from those two issues just less so. Awesome flavor though!

Dough B (24 hr)
Total Fermentation: 24 hours (13 hours in bulk; 11 hours balled) all at 70F / 21C
Recipe: 
-500g Caputo 00 Pizzeria
-315g warm water (63%)
-15g SD starter (3%)
-15g salt (3%)

Dough Technique
-Fed starter at 8:15AM then made dough at 6:15pm (10 hours later) 
-Mixed SD starter into warm water, added flour and salt
-Kneaded ~ 20 times then rested for 10 minutes
-slap and fold 5x
-another 10 min rest
-a few more slap and folds then put it in big bowl to let it bulk ferment for 13 hours
-balled the next morning then made pizza 11 hours later in the evening

Roccbox Technique
Same as listed above for Dough A

Conclusion
Some of the most visually appealing pizzas I've ever made with beautiful leopard spots, but crust was very dense and slightly gummy. Also, the flavor was a tad too sour for my taste.

[TXCraig1]

For a first attempt, these look great. It's really hard to diagnose much from just one set of pies. It's entirely possible that you could try to do everything exactly the same way and get different results. Consistency with sourdough comes with experience.

I'd tweak the yeast/temps a bit based on what you learned and try again and see what is the same/different.

[mikewp318]

For a first attempt, these look great. It's really hard to diagnose much from just one set of pies. It's entirely possible that you could try to do everything exactly the same way and get different results. Consistency with sourdough comes with experience.

I'd tweak the yeast/temps a bit based on what you learned and try again and see what is the same/different.

Thanks Craig. I need to get myself a wine fridge per your rec or something to lower my fermentation temps. Ideally would like to have a steady 65F. I will keep experimenting!

[Jackitup]

I agree with Craig, more right than wrong to my eye! Make a few more before changing anything tooo much!

[Yael]

Your test is actually interesting as I also preferred same-day dough on one of my tests (reply 19 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=61049.msg610928#msg610928), even though I didn't prefer it for the same reasons.

But according to the pic of pizza B, it would look like a lack of baking. As Craig said, "It's entirely possible that you could try to do everything exactly the same way and get different results".

Don't forget that you didn't change the water amount in both formula, and you have much more water in dough A (if your SD is half water half flour, it means you have 63% hydration + 10% from the SD so 73% in total. That could explain the more airy dough you get with dough A, vs 63+1.5=64.5% for dough B).

[mikewp318]

Your test is actually interesting as I also preferred same-day dough on one of my tests (reply 19 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=61049.msg610928#msg610928), even though I didn't prefer it for the same reasons.

But according to the pic of pizza B, it would look like a lack of baking. As Craig said, "It's entirely possible that you could try to do everything exactly the same way and get different results".

Don't forget that you didn't change the water amount in both formula, and you have much more water in dough A (if your SD is half water half flour, it means you have 63% hydration + 10% from the SD so 73% in total. That could explain the more airy dough you get with dough A, vs 63+1.5=64.5% for dough B).

Very interesting regarding your similar results. My 24H dough was also a bit too acidic / sour for my liking. I'm wondering if this was due to our higher fermentation temperatures? The people I know who have great results with 24H dough are all fermenting around 18C / 65F, and you and I were in much higher temps of 21 - 24C / 70 - 75F.

Also, great observation regarding the different hydration levels. Forgot to account for the starter hydration! Something I can't seem to get a consensus answer on is the impact of hydration on guminess. Does increasing hydration help alleviate guminess, or is it the other way around? So many conflicting answers to this question out there so would appreciate people's insight!

[Yael]

About hydration and gummyness, I may not have the best answer but IMO the simplest explanation would be that for the exact same baking temperature and time, the higher the hydration, the gummier the crust: water simply doesn't have enough time to evaporate. But in the other hand, to add complexity, a higher hydration would yield a softer dough (with bigger air pockets - alveoles), permitting a better heat conduction within the crust...

What you say about the acidity and T° is interesting, I'd like to know more if someone could chime in! It seems that low temperatures make the SD acidity more acetic, and high T° make it more lactic; and acetic would be less desirable than lactic... So... I don't know.