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Author Topic: What factors influence the amount of air in the cornicone?  (Read 516 times)

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Offline jakob8b

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What factors influence the amount of air in the cornicone?
« on: March 25, 2020, 07:39:45 AM »
Hello pizza friends :chef:

I recently got myself a nice pizza party oven and I'm slowly getting to a place where I'm happy with my pizzas. However, lately I feel like my progress has stagnated a little, which frustrates me.
Specifically, I'm unable the achieve the desired puffy cornicone.

I've experienced with upping my hydration from 60% to 65%, since I was led to believe that a higher hydration would lead to more air in the crust, but it did not yield to results I had hoped.
I've also tried cutting down on my kneading to a point where I barely knead the dough at all. I mix it until it's homogeneous and then I give it 5-10 quick kneads before doing a cycle of stretch-and-folds in 10 minute intervals until my dough has a nice and smooth surface (usually I need to stretch it 3 or 4 times).

I'm using the caputo pizzeria flour and fresh yeast. I'm using 3% salt and the PizzApp+ to determine the amount of yeast.

What are other factors that might help me achieve my goal? I'm beginning to wonder if I might be opening the dough incorrectly. Sometimes it feels like I'm pushing dough into the crust as much as I'm pushing air when opening the dough.

I'll make a batch of dough tonight and upload pictures of my process to this thread. I'll also update with my strecthing technique tomorrow night when I'm baking the pies.

I look forward to your input, thanks in advance :) :pizza:

Online The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
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Re: What factors influence the amount of air in the cornicone?
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2020, 09:54:14 AM »
From what you are describing as well as your comments on "pushing" the dough lead me to believe that you might have a problem in the way you are opening the dough. Here is something to try, open the dough using a rolling pin or pastry pin but DO NOT open it to full diameter, instead just open it to within 36 to 50mm of the full diameter, then finish opening the skin to full diameter by hand. Be sure to provide us with the dough ball weight and diameter pizza you are making.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline jakob8b

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Re: What factors influence the amount of air in the cornicone?
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2020, 05:43:24 PM »
Hi Tom

Thank you for your reply. I'm afraid I don't actually own a rolling pin ??? I'm going to make a video of my regular technique tomorrow, maybe you'll be able to tell if there's any error in it.

For now I've made a dough for 4 pizzas of 260g (they usually end up around 250-255 once they are acutally balled). I usually stretch these to ~30cm.

Flour: 619g
Water: 402g (65%)
Salt: 19g (3%)
Fresh yeast: 0,86g

My plan is to bulk ferment for 12 hours, ball them and then rest for another 8 hours - all at 19 degrees celcius.

First picture is after mixing.
Second picture is during the 4th and final stretch.
Third picture is after 4th stretch and ready to bulk ferment.

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Re: What factors influence the amount of air in the cornicone?
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2020, 08:53:19 PM »
A short time ago we discussed bulk and ball fermentation here. With such a small size dough you will not achieve any benefit to bulk fermentation. Because of this I'd suggest just balling the dough and then giving it the room temperature fermentation, then turn it out of the container onto a floured surface, flour the dough ball and open it into a skin ready for dressing and baking. You don't even have a pastry pin?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline wotavidone

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Re: What factors influence the amount of air in the cornicone?
« Reply #4 on: March 27, 2020, 03:42:50 AM »
You don't even have a pastry pin?

Straight sided wine bottle?
Mick

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Offline wotavidone

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Re: What factors influence the amount of air in the cornicone?
« Reply #5 on: March 27, 2020, 03:47:23 AM »
Hi Tom

Thank you for your reply. I'm afraid I don't actually own a rolling pin ??? I'm going to make a video of my regular technique tomorrow, maybe you'll be able to tell if there's any error in it.

For now I've made a dough for 4 pizzas of 260g (they usually end up around 250-255 once they are acutally balled). I usually stretch these to ~30cm.

Flour: 619g
Water: 402g (65%)
Salt: 19g (3%)
Fresh yeast: 0,86g

My plan is to bulk ferment for 12 hours, ball them and then rest for another 8 hours - all at 19 degrees celcius.

First picture is after mixing.
Second picture is during the 4th and final stretch.
Third picture is after 4th stretch and ready to bulk ferment.
Have you tried kneading the heck out of it when you first mix it, so as to get full gluten development?
Considering you plan to leave it in balls for 8 hours, they should still relax enough to stretch.
And I reckon the dough then hangs on to the gas better when you cook it.
Mick

Offline jakob8b

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Re: What factors influence the amount of air in the cornicone?
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2020, 11:40:50 AM »
Have you tried kneading the heck out of it when you first mix it, so as to get full gluten development?
Considering you plan to leave it in balls for 8 hours, they should still relax enough to stretch.
And I reckon the dough then hangs on to the gas better when you cook it.

My first attempts when I started making pizzas a year ago was a very well-kneaded dough in a doughmixer. But it may be time to reconsider that part of the process again since it's been so long and so many other factors have changed/improved. I think I'll give it a go next time, thanks for the input!

Offline marcus13668

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Re: What factors influence the amount of air in the cornicone?
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2020, 02:35:46 AM »
Up the hydration, 70-75% with enough strenght to hold the gasses will give you a larger cornicione.

Also using preferment like Biga will give you a larger cornicione.

The opening technique also matters, but large corniciones are worth nothing if it is only doughy, it should be airy and that comes down to the dough.
Timing of the fermentation is also important, so there are many variabels.

Check out Lioniello Salvatores videos on youtube, he has one where he uses biga and one where he uses poolish. He is known to do the canotto style.

Offline jakob8b

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Re: What factors influence the amount of air in the cornicone?
« Reply #8 on: March 31, 2020, 09:48:55 AM »
Up the hydration, 70-75% with enough strenght to hold the gasses will give you a larger cornicione.

Also using preferment like Biga will give you a larger cornicione.

The opening technique also matters, but large corniciones are worth nothing if it is only doughy, it should be airy and that comes down to the dough.
Timing of the fermentation is also important, so there are many variabels.

Check out Lioniello Salvatores videos on youtube, he has one where he uses biga and one where he uses poolish. He is known to do the canotto style.

Thank you for the reply :)

I don't feel like there was a great difference in the end result by going from 60% to 65%, but maybe any difference would be more noticable by going even higher. That could be a useful experiment.

I definitely want to try biga at some point, but I've always postponed it until I was happy with my regular fresh-yeast-dough. I'll add that to the list of possible expiriments aswell, thank you!

Offline marcus13668

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Re: What factors influence the amount of air in the cornicone?
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2020, 04:53:57 AM »
Thank you for the reply :)

I don't feel like there was a great difference in the end result by going from 60% to 65%, but maybe any difference would be more noticable by going even higher. That could be a useful experiment.

I definitely want to try biga at some point, but I've always postponed it until I was happy with my regular fresh-yeast-dough. I'll add that to the list of possible expiriments aswell, thank you!

Also, based on your recipe. The yeast ammount is to high I think. If the dough is to overfermented it wont have the same puffiness since all the sugars in the flour will have been eaten up already. Try 0.25 gram fresh yeast per kilo of flour for a 24 hour dough if you are in the 70% hydration area.

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Offline jakob8b

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Re: What factors influence the amount of air in the cornicone?
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2020, 02:30:04 PM »
Also, based on your recipe. The yeast ammount is to high I think. If the dough is to overfermented it wont have the same puffiness since all the sugars in the flour will have been eaten up already. Try 0.25 gram fresh yeast per kilo of flour for a 24 hour dough if you are in the 70% hydration area.

Does that not depend very much on the temperature of the room where it's fermenting? I aligned the value with Craig's chart and it matched very closely.

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