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Author Topic: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala  (Read 640 times)

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Offline amolapizza

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4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« on: May 22, 2020, 05:53:19 PM »
I came across this thread on the Confraternity's website and was very intrigued!

https://laconfraternitadellapizza.forumfree.it/?t=77582488

If you don't speak Italian you can probably use Google translate to understand most of it, and otherwise just looking at the pictures is mouthwatering!

I've been taught at the courses that I have done with them that a dough has to mature for a long time, normally 1 or 2 days to make a Pizza alla Pala.  This has always been somewhat of a drag for me, as neither do I want to, nor is it all that practical for me to plan that far in advance.

Today I decided at 5 o'clock to make one, and at 9 o'clock it went into the oven!

I made the dough in my Sunmix spiral mixer, the 700g was probably the absolute minimum but it did work.  Took me 12 minutes to make the dough, I'll repeat a few times to see if I can't learn to do it faster.  The ambient temperature of my kitchen today was about 24C.  I used cold water directly from the tap and the final dough temperature was a surprisingly low 25.4C.

The recipe for 700g of dough:

382g Caputo saccorosso
306g water (80%)
12g Salt (3.1% / 40g/L)
2g IDY (0.52%)

I started with adding the flour and the IDY to the mixer and let it run while I measured the rest of the ingredients, then I added 230g of the water, when the dough had taken form I added the salt, and then slowly the remaining 76g of water.

I judged that it wouldn't get any better structure by leaving it in the mixer, it kind of stuck to the spiral instead of forming the usual pumpkin shape (not enough dough).  But I think I can probably learn to do this better (I've never made such a small high hydration dough in it before).

I removed it from the bowl and threw it on my stone bench.  Then I did a series of folds until it took some shape, I repeated another 3 times each time waiting for about 10 minutes.  The result can be seen in the first photo.  I then put it into a an oiled (probably too large) container for another 3 hours and 20 minutes, and left it on the bench.

I removed it from the container onto a bed of semola rimacinata and covered it with even more semola.  At this point it had really expanded in volume so I really didn't have to do much more than press it lightly with my fingers a few times and then move it onto the pala (peel).  This is always my weakness but it worked out pretty well!

I pinched a few really big bubbles and then pressed it a few times with my finger tips to make it a little bit tighter to prevent any huge bubbles inflating in the oven.  Then I covered it with EVO and topped it with a mix of 50g of pecorino romano, a large spoonful of origano and loads of black pepper.

My Effeuno P134H was set to 250/350C (upper/lower thermostat).  I baked it for 4 minutes and then I turned it and baked for another 3 minutes.  This first time I wanted to follow the instructions and the result was very soft an juicy.  Next time I'll probably either increase the temperatures or bake it a while longer as I like my pala to crunch!

I'm very happy with the result and the POP topping (pecorino romana/oregano/pepper) was excellent!

Thanks for the recipe Priore and I'll let the photos speak for themselves!



Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline surgtech2006

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2020, 07:35:05 PM »
Looks great, and only 4 hours!

Offline Yael

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2020, 11:40:51 PM »
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Online Pizza_Not_War

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2020, 12:52:29 AM »
Looks great. What is final size? I have some reenforced 00 Central Milling on order and this looks perfect for that first use.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2020, 07:29:13 AM »
About 30x40cm.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2020, 05:30:02 PM »
Since this was so fast and easy I did it again!

Same recipe but I let it go 5 hours and baked it for 10 minutes.  Topped just with olive oil and some fleur de sel.

I don't have what I'd really like in the fridge, but the slice was topped with sour cream, salad, boiled ham, candied pomodorino, toasted pine nuts, fresh oregano, grated provolone picante and a touch of black pepper.

I made the candied pomodorino by cutting them in half, putting them on a tray, sprinkled them with some cane sugar and then letting them go in the oven at 170C for an hour.  The pinenuts were just toasted in a pan with some olive oil and then I sprinkled some fleur de sel on them.

I made 2 slices like that for myself, it was delicious! :D
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2020, 11:51:25 PM »
That looks really nice! Can you tell any difference in digestibility between this and the 48 to 72 hour pala/pinsa doughs?

Offline Yael

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2020, 03:43:32 AM »
 :o :drool:
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Offline Pete_da_Bayer

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2020, 06:40:05 AM »
Since this was so fast and easy I did it again!

Same recipe but I let it go 5 hours and baked it for 10 minutes.  Topped just with olive oil and some fleur de sel.

I don't have what I'd really like in the fridge, but the slice was topped with sour cream, salad, boiled ham, candied pomodorino, toasted pine nuts, fresh oregano, grated provolone picante and a touch of black pepper.

I made the candied pomodorino by cutting them in half, putting them on a tray, sprinkled them with some cane sugar and then letting them go in the oven at 170C for an hour.  The pinenuts were just toasted in a pan with some olive oil and then I sprinkled some fleur de sel on them.

I made 2 slices like that for myself, it was delicious! :D
It looks fantastic! I never tried pizza in teglia under 24 hrs either, but the results speak for itself. I am definetely going to try this. Thanks for sharing!

Offline Fiorot

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2020, 04:22:24 PM »
Since this was so fast and easy I did it again!

Same recipe but I let it go 5 hours and baked it for 10 minutes.  Topped just with olive oil and some fleur de sel.

I don't have what I'd really like in the fridge, but the slice was topped with sour cream, salad, boiled ham, candied pomodorino, toasted pine nuts, fresh oregano, grated provolone picante and a touch of black pepper.

I made the candied pomodorino by cutting them in half, putting them on a tray, sprinkled them with some cane sugar and then letting them go in the oven at 170C for an hour.  The pinenuts were just toasted in a pan with some olive oil and then I sprinkled some fleur de sel on them.

I made 2 slices like that for myself, it was delicious! :D
Totally awesome Chef!!!

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2020, 07:43:55 AM »
Thanks guys!

Can you tell any difference in digestibility between this and the 48 to 72 hour pala/pinsa doughs?

That's the million dollar question! :D

The first one made me quite thirsty, but with 50g of pecorino romano and a lot of black pepper maybe that was to be expected..  I can't say that I noticed any extra thirst or heavy stomach after the eating the second.  The next day I cut pieces in half, warmed them up in the deck oven and made a few sandwiches, was also great.

The Priore says that his 90 year old mother wants him to make it every day, and doesn't seem to suffer from indigestion.  Apparently it's become the new house bread made fresh every day. Others have also reported being able to eat it without any bad side effects.

Personally I've always wondered about extended maturation for pizza, is it really necessary?  After all we can eat bread (most of us), made without multiple day maturation periods.  Maybe it's the toppings, the short baking time, or eating large amounts of baked dough that causes problems?  Note that I don't have any experience with US flours.

I can't say that I noticed any inferior taste, but it was a long time ago that I ate a 48 hour pala.  In fact I thought it was delicious!

But one thing is sure, being able to decide to make pizza alla pala / in teglia and then to eat it 4-5 hours later is great!  I've always been put off by the the 24-48 hours maturation as for me it's hard to plan that far in advance, and I do have a very small fridge with unreliable temperatures and little available space.

Maybe you can try and decide for yourself?  If you do, please let me know what you think about it and how your stomach fares!
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2020, 11:40:49 AM »
Jack, I will try your recipe sometime and see how it goes.

I totally understand the desire not to plan in advance too much and not wanting to use up fridge space. Especially in these crazy times, I don't have space in my fridge for a large amount of dough, and definitely no space for dough boxes.

I also think that perhaps the claims for the digestibility of longer fermented dough are somewhat exaggerated. Flavor development in a long-fermented dough is undeniable, but the digestability I'm not sure about.

I regularly make Japanese Milk Bread and it takes about 3-5 hours max to ferment. It is very light and easy to digest and neither I nor any of my guests ever complained. Also, I see experts like Gabriele Bonci, owner of Pizzarium and Vanessa Campbell, owner of Sourdough School, talk at length about how long-fermented and sourdough is so much more digestible than short fermented commercial yeast dough. It almost seems that they think that modern bread is the downfall of society. Lol. But if you look at photos of both of those people, with no offense intended, they don't look like they're digesting all that well to me. In fact, I understand that Bonci had to go on a Keto diet to return to a normal weight.

I think that, in the end, if you eat too many carbs (and perhaps calories as well), the result is the same, whether you ferment them for 5 hours or 72. So with moderation, perhaps fermentation time really doesn't matter all that much as far as health goes. I mean, many foods made of flour are not fermented at all - dumplings, pasta, noodles for example. No one talks about how digestible dumplings or noodles are. Maybe the focus is misplaced - some people just want to believe that if they ferment pizza dough or bread dough long enough, then it becomes "healthy". Lol. Makes for good marketing too I suppose.

I think the only exception is people who are not celiacs, but highly sensitive to gluten, seem to do better when I make TxCraig's 48 hour sourdough pizza. For everyone else, probably not much difference.

 

Offline Fiorot

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2020, 07:16:03 PM »
My first attempt at this.   I like this but I think when I used oil on the top it limited the rising.   To cover a Sicilian Pizza Pan the Ball needs to be bigger that 700 grams   I am trying to figure out how much more it should be.  Any ideas?

Offline DoouBall

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2020, 07:20:06 PM »
My first attempt at this.   I like this but I think when I used oil on the top it limited the rising.   To cover a Sicilian Pizza Pan the Ball needs to be bigger than 700 grams   I am trying to figure out how much more it should be.  Any ideas?

It depends on the style you're going for and size of your pan.

If you're going for the American Sicilian style, Tony Gemignani recommends 990g ball of dough for a 12 x 18" Sicilian pan.

If you're going for a Roman Style Pizza in Teglia, the rule is take the measurement of length x width in cm and divide by 2. So for my 30x40 cm steel pan, I use 30x40/2 = 600g dough. You can go a little over, like 650, but I wouldn't go past that.

Offline Yael

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2020, 08:39:20 PM »
DoouBall,

As I often (if not always) praise long fermentations for digestibility, I also had questions like yours (spoiler alert: I still don't have all the answers!).
When I first learned about it, I was like "what about bread? Most bakers don't make more than a couple hours RTF, or for convenience 24H CF". Then I was told yeast is not digestible, you can't put too much. Ok, that makes sense then. But... What about teglia/pala pizza? With 1% CY amounts in some formula? 3 times more than classic pizza?

I actually don't know how much yeast commercial bakers are using for bread, and I guess it depends on the bread, of course. For other bakery products, like croissant or brioche, you have to add a lot of yeast, because of butter for example, the dough will be "harder" to inflate. It seems it's amounts like 2 to 4% CY (can someone confirm?).

The most important thing IMO is that the dough needs to have the good plastic properties when baking, this means (almost) no elasticity remaining, showing that the gluten starts to be weak enough. You may not feel it when using machines (dough sheeter...), but then you bake your pizza and there is this kind of big bubbles on the top (which cause can be a gluten with still too much strength).

I like to make at least 8~10H RTF or 12H CF + 6~10H RTF for my dough with almost any flour I use, and when it's shorter, there's really a difference in dough plastic properties (not mentioning flavor). I assume this is linked with gluten (and digestibility), and I have been saying so, but it' true that I'm also not a nutritionist...
Maybe there's a minimum needed for digestibility, let's say 8H on standard conditions, and above it doesn't change much?

Other than gluten weakening, I think there's also the production of acids in long fermentation (+ protease) that helps with digestibility. It's not only about the gluten then.

I know also that in the past few years my mother started to eat less gluten products, and when I go back to France and I bake pizzas, she doesn't have any digesting trouble at all.

But you may be true when you say this is good for marketing. When you open a pizzeria where you make "real" pizza, you know, with all the knowledge in the dough and fermentation process, you have to tell your customers that your dough is special. "Daily made" means nothing anymore to you, except "same day dough", which is (maybe) not a good thing regarding all this topic. So you have to emphasize on something else (but it's not a lie so... it's all good!).

About other products, dumplings, pasta... Italian pasta are made of semolina (European hard wheat category), and they do have gluten, but the gluten is different (don't ask me why... Tom may know); dumplings and others are boiled (gluten would be weakened in water?). Crispy baked products seem to be also considered as digestible (bake enough so the gluten is dry).
Those are just some of my thoughts, I didn't make a research on that...


Oh and BTW, I don't think their physical appearance is directly linked with the bread they make  :-D
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Online Pizza_Not_War

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2020, 11:59:18 PM »
Got my shipment of CM 00 Reinforced flour and made this today. Daughter said it tasted like eating clouds, she obviously loved it. It was very floppy dough and I was unprepared for the transfer so it wasn't as pretty as I would have like it, but it tasted great. Topped with Garlic, Asiago, Olive Oil, some spices.

Thanks for the recipe, I followed it pretty closely but only did one stretch and fold and let it be. Probably 5+ hours and my baking steel was in the 600's to start. I don't have the ability to regulate top/bottom heat. Could probably have left it in a few more minutes to brown it.

btw - this is better than the focaccia I've been making recently as far as texture. Flavor-wise Einkorn focaccia sourdough is pretty hard to beat IMO.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2020, 12:01:29 AM by Pizza_Not_War »

Offline amolapizza

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #16 on: May 28, 2020, 06:09:20 AM »
Flavor development in a long-fermented dough is undeniable, but the digestability I'm not sure about.

Yes I think the flavor might improve with longer fermentation, but this 4 hour pizza made with Caputo saccorosso is already really fantastic.  Personally I think the speed of preparation far outweighs any potential increase in flavor.  I doubt that I'll ever go back to 48 hours preparation for this style.

Quote
Maybe the focus is misplaced - some people just want to believe that if they ferment pizza dough or bread dough long enough, then it becomes "healthy". Lol. Makes for good marketing too I suppose.

Yes I think a lot is probably marketing..

Maybe you're right about the wishful thinking!  After all it's probably not too healthy to eat large amounts of carbs everyday.  Especially for some of us depending on pre existing health conditions, activity level, weight, blood type, etc.

But thank god that most of us make our own pizza instead of just buying frozen.  Ours taste way better and are surely way healthier for us to eat!
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2020, 06:17:00 AM »
My first attempt at this.   I like this but I think when I used oil on the top it limited the rising.   To cover a Sicilian Pizza Pan the Ball needs to be bigger that 700 grams   I am trying to figure out how much more it should be.  Any ideas?

I normally go by the area (in cm2) times 0.6 (the more traditional Italian way would be 0.5), In this case the calculation would be 30x40*0.6=720g.  But you can go a little higher or lower depending on the thickness that you want.  I went with 700g for this.  Still it's approximate as it's hard to control the exact size without a form to hold it.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2020, 06:42:57 AM »
Got my shipment of CM 00 Reinforced flour and made this today. Daughter said it tasted like eating clouds, she obviously loved it. It was very floppy dough and I was unprepared for the transfer so it wasn't as pretty as I would have like it, but it tasted great. Topped with Garlic, Asiago, Olive Oil, some spices.

Thanks for the recipe, I followed it pretty closely but only did one stretch and fold and let it be. Probably 5+ hours and my baking steel was in the 600's to start. I don't have the ability to regulate top/bottom heat. Could probably have left it in a few more minutes to brown it.

btw - this is better than the focaccia I've been making recently as far as texture. Flavor-wise Einkorn focaccia sourdough is pretty hard to beat IMO.

Well it's a bit of a challenge and probably not for beginners, after all it's 80% hydration!

FWIW I made an 80% hydration dough for bread a few days ago, and for some reason it never got enough strength in the mixer nor on the bench afterwards.  Even cold out of the fridge it was a sticky mess and the dough flattened out and wanted to stick to my peel.  In the end a very tasty but misshapen bread, a real challenge to get into the oven!

If you try again do add a few more folding cycles as I think they are needed to give the dough strength.  I can feel how my dough improves with each set, by the fourth it really doesn't need more. You can feel how it has changed and become much more cohesive.  Of course how many are needed would also depend on the strength of the flour and how much structure you managed to give it while mixing.

My biggest challenge is always flattening it in an even manner, moving it to the peel, and finally to get it into the oven.  But this is just technique and improves with practice!  Also easier to practice when it only takes 4-5 hours instead of two day to produce the dough. :)

Personally I prefer teglia/pala to focaccia as I much prefer the more open crumb structure and lightness.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: 4 hour Pizza alla Pala
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2020, 09:04:23 AM »
Flavor-wise Einkorn focaccia sourdough is pretty hard to beat IMO.

Actually thinking about it, you could probably make this with a sourdough starter too!  The question being how much you'd need to use.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

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