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Author Topic: Sugar and yeast amount  (Read 507 times)

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Offline ivowiblo

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Sugar and yeast amount
« on: June 27, 2020, 12:55:49 PM »
Hi!
Due my home oven not reaching super high temperatures, I use to add sugar to my dough. Now I'm using a modified G3-like oven that reaches 850F (in the stone), with a 1000W heating element 2 inches from it. Pizzas cook in 90 seconds.

The thing is, it continues to need suger to brown more or less nicely.

I checked Carig's table and compare to my own findings and realize that I'm always using about twice the fermentation time than stated in the chart so was wondering in the sugar will have something to do with it like much of the yeast eats the sugar I added so it's not playing a role in the flour fermentation.

My recipe goes as follows:
  • 13% Protein Flour
  • 63% Water
  • 0,4% Yeast
  • 3% Salt
  • 4% Sugar

Here in Argentina is winter so kitchen temperatures go around 55-65 F. Mix everything, leave it for 21-24 hs bulk fermenting, then ball and leave for 4hs and make the pizzas. Everything RT. The dough doesn't feel overfermented. It's not slack but just a little elastic.

If I remove the sugar, it almost doesn't brown but don't remember if it felt overfermented.

The 13% protein flour is actually a 10% protein flour (I don't believe it's malted) with 5% VWG added. But I count it all as "100% flour", as the rest of the ingredients are calculated on that and not just the amount of "plain flour".

Thoughts?

Thanks!!!

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Sugar and yeast amount
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2020, 01:20:42 PM »
Try 8-9 hours and see if it changes?
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline Yael

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Re: Sugar and yeast amount
« Reply #2 on: June 27, 2020, 08:23:30 PM »
It's not slack but just a little elastic
Maybe try a longer time in balls. IMO 4H on a 24H RTF is on the short side..?

If you want to keep the sugar, you can try less yeast. It's all about balance anyway, you want more of that, then you can lower this, etc!
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline ivowiblo

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Re: Sugar and yeast amount
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2020, 02:34:21 PM »
Yes, my next test will be with 6 hs in balls.

I don't mind adding the sugar, just wondering if it is what is making my process need more yeast than the expected.

Of course, one solution will be to try everything and I'm planning to do it. Just wondered if there was something too obvious :)

Thanks!!

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Sugar and yeast amount
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2020, 10:08:16 PM »
At those temps?? That dough should be BURNT with 4% sugar. Something seems off to me.

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Offline naval2006

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Re: Sugar and yeast amount
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2020, 09:46:04 AM »
I think in Argentina it's more an oven problem than anything else.  Ovens are usually gas, very hot bottom but that heat doesn't make it well to the top because the box is too tall and not so well insulated.  It just goes off low and there's no way the baking box gets evenly hot inside. Without a broiler it's not possible to get that dark finish in our type of ovens.  And I don't know if the G3 type ovens can get that type of browing either. 

Dough Doctor suggested me using up to 3% sugar for coloring, which helps some. 

About the flour, I don't know how much it's got to do with browning.  I bake bread in the dutch oven and I get the same browining than in the photos.  I know well this pizzaiolo in my hometown that uses 0000 flour for pizza and his pizza gets a heck of a color in a gas neapolitan style oven.  So if I had to tell by experience most likely it's your oven. 

On sugar and yeast I use 3% sugar and 0,4-0,5% IDY and I CF between 2-3 days using 000 flour without problems.  That's the best formula I found for our ingredients in Argentina.  I agree there's a lot of trying out starting with the recipes on the forum to accomodate mostly to our flour and ovens.  So don't stop experimenting.

Alex

 

Offline ivowiblo

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Re: Sugar and yeast amount
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2020, 12:02:00 PM »
 Hey!

G3s are a bunch of electric pizza ovens and all the heat comes from the top. it's a 1000W heating element with the stone hitting 450°C/850°F

It seems odd to me that the crust doesn't burn with that amount of sugar. That's why I'm thinking that maybe that sugar gets eaten by the yeast and is not contributing with coloring. But if I remove that, it doesn't brown (at least in the 90 second bakes I'm doing). Maybe I should try with shorter fermentation without sugar (or removing sugar AND some yeast).


Offline ak47e6

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Re: Sugar and yeast amount
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2020, 03:20:39 PM »
Could be over fermented and the yeast has consumed all the sugar thus it’s not browning. Just looking at Craig’s chart for 28 (24bulk, 4 ball) total hours should be in the range of .096% at 55F to .032% at65F for IDY So for 1000g of flour that would be between .96g at 55F to .32g at 65F.  This chart has been a great starting point and then you just tweak the qty based on your conditions (flour type, hydration, dough mass, etc...) until you get the schedule and results you want. If you are using .4% IDY at 55F then would be ready around 10 hours according to the chart. Assuming you are using IDY??

Offline ivowiblo

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Re: Sugar and yeast amount
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2020, 06:39:38 PM »
I'm using cake yeast, but yeah. it should be lot less. I'm fermenting around 60-65F, son 14-15 hs should be.

Offline ivowiblo

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Re: Sugar and yeast amount
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2020, 10:13:34 PM »
Yael, I tried today 6 hs in balls. What a difference in terms of elasticity! The cornicione got more airy and less bready and it was much more easy to open.

I continue to ignore why I need more yeast/time but it's fine I guess.

Thanks!

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Offline Yael

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Re: Sugar and yeast amount
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2020, 12:24:21 AM »
Yael, I tried today 6 hs in balls. What a difference in terms of elasticity! The cornicione got more airy and less bready and it was much more easy to open.

I continue to ignore why I need more yeast/time but it's fine I guess.

Thanks!

That's good news!
Next change: lower the yeast a little bit. What I would even do is divide by 2 and follow the evolution of the dough, meaning I'll bake not when I want, but when the dough is ready (well, if it's already 7pm and your dough is still very under-fermented, don't wait till 3 or 4am  ;D, instead switch on the light of your home oven and proof the dough balls inside, maybe you'll bake at 9 or 10pm, that's a little bit better!) (or simply plan to bake for lunch, so you have the whole day to check the dough ^^)
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline ivowiblo

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Re: Sugar and yeast amount
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2020, 10:48:23 PM »
So I made a new batch with 0.3% yeast.
I think the dough was less sticky and the end result was... the same. So basically I prefer it haha. Also, I think it did brown faster (bakes were 90-120 seconds)

Next time I'll try with 0.18% yeast as it's what the chart says. I wish it burns then, so I can lower/throw away the sugar.


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