A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: Theo's basic pizza making quest  (Read 605 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline theodoros

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 28
  • Location: New York
  • I Love Pizza!
Theo's basic pizza making quest
« on: June 27, 2020, 01:24:02 PM »
A wise pizzaiolo once told me if I want to learn to make great pizza i need to start at the beginning.

So here I am! Im using this post to document my pizza journey. Through experimentation and guidance I hope to master the basic pizza. Each time I bake a pie I will implement what I've learned from the past. For now I am staying with a basic margarita.

The focus for me is
  • the dough
  • shaping
  • balking in a home oven[/]
Below is my latest pizza dough


« Last Edit: June 27, 2020, 03:54:32 PM by theodoros »

Offline theodoros

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 28
  • Location: New York
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Theo's basic pizza making Journey
« Reply #1 on: June 27, 2020, 01:49:48 PM »
the mix
  • will hand mix for now
  • added flour and water into bowl and mixed
  • let it autolyse for 45 minutes
  • added yeast and salt and kneaded until fully incorporated and smooth dough ball was formed
  • BF for an hour at 80ºF
  • CF for 26 hours at 40ºF
  • preheated oven with baking stone to max at 500ºF
  • brought dough to temp 72ºF and shaped
  • added sauce and parmegiano
  • placed on baking stone and let pie cook for a few
  • noticed pie separated like a pita started to pop any bubbles i could
  • added mozzarella cheese and EVOO
  • cooked pie until it browned

My observations
  • dough was a little stiff when i tried to shape. I'll apply more force to get it where i want it
  • I wasnt happy tht the pie separated so i got a dough docker for the next bake
  • i will add IDY to autolyse to incorporate mix better. wasnt happy with how crumb felt a little gummy.  Since dough is a little dry at 61% hydration

Questions
  • how many grams should a 14" ball of dough be with a thickness factor of 0.09
  • can someone point me to their preferred method of shaping

Many thanks in advance :chef:

Theo
« Last Edit: June 27, 2020, 01:56:43 PM by theodoros »

Offline foreplease

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6462
  • Age: 60
  • Location: St. Joseph, MI
Re: Theo's basic pizza making quest
« Reply #2 on: June 28, 2020, 09:59:00 AM »
Not sure what made me look at this. For this batch, it is an insignificant difference but it might be a good idea to keep an eye on calculations from this dough calculator if you start making multiple pizzas. When adding the weight of all ingredients, as displayed, I get a total weight of 391.1 g vs 391.5.


Other than that, you are off to a great start keeping track of ingredient amounts and dough handling procedure that will help you improve your pizzas - and to know why.


EDIT: I think it is because Water at 61% = 146.4 g but i displayed as 146. Seems like it would be better if each ingredient was displayed the same. Whether or not you actually try to use 146.4 g water is one thing, but it should make sense on paper if we check the sum.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 10:05:58 AM by foreplease »
-Tony

Offline corkd

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 726
  • Location: syracuse, ny
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Theo's basic pizza making quest
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2020, 10:42:47 AM »
If I may suggest, try increasing your hydration % with high-gluten flour- to at least 65%- this will make your dough easier to stretch. Your dough ball weight 0f 391g is ok. Check out the Lehman Dough thread- lots of great results there to learn from.

Offline theodoros

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 28
  • Location: New York
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Theo's basic pizza making quest
« Reply #4 on: June 28, 2020, 03:37:56 PM »
thank you both for the great tips.. Ive been reading a lot on this forum.. fantastic info. albeit its scattered all over the place ;)). Hopefully I'll be making decent pizza by end of summer

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline corkd

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 726
  • Location: syracuse, ny
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Theo's basic pizza making quest
« Reply #5 on: June 28, 2020, 04:04:34 PM »
thank you both for the great tips.. Ive been reading a lot on this forum.. fantastic info. albeit its scattered all over the place ;)). Hopefully I'll be making decent pizza by end of summer
Yeah it can be a little overwhelming, and easy to go down multiple rabbit holes. Maybe try a few “emergency” doughs- those made with lots of yeast that are proofed in a few hours. They can give you good quick experience in handling & shaping.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 04:07:09 PM by corkd »

Offline Pizza_Not_War

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1075
  • Location: Portland OR
Re: Theo's basic pizza making quest
« Reply #6 on: June 28, 2020, 05:22:47 PM »
Have you checked your yeast for viability? Your pita comment was right on, you don't seem to have much fermentation happening or gluten development.

Offline jsaras

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 3648
  • Location: Camarillo, CA
Re: Theo's basic pizza making quest
« Reply #7 on: June 28, 2020, 06:41:24 PM »
It's dead yeast.  I had the same thing happen to me a few weeks ago.
Things have never been more like today than they are right now.

Offline corkd

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 726
  • Location: syracuse, ny
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Theo's basic pizza making quest
« Reply #8 on: June 29, 2020, 08:12:10 AM »
Have you checked your yeast for viability? Your pita comment was right on, you don't seem to have much fermentation happening or gluten development.
It's dead yeast.  I had the same thing happen to me a few weeks ago.
^^^

Offline Yael

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1512
  • Location: A French in China
  • French Pizza !
    • my Wechat page
Re: Theo's basic pizza making quest
« Reply #9 on: June 29, 2020, 09:01:40 AM »
In addition to what have been said above, keeping your exact formula I would tweak 2 things:
- add 3% EVOO, which will help for the handling properties + a better crust result, assuming that you bake around 300°C;
- if it's not the case let your dough proofing at RT after taking out from the fridge. Tom Lehmann would suggest to wait till the dough ball is at RT (18-20°C), within an hour or two, before baking.
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline theodoros

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 28
  • Location: New York
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Theo's basic pizza making quest
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2020, 07:19:30 AM »
It's dead yeast.  I had the same thing happen to me a few weeks ago.

I tested the yeast and its alive... It must have been an issue with mixing. Im not used to working with low hydration + high gluten dough.  On the following batch I added the yeast to the water mixed it with the flour and autolysed it for 40 minutes.  I then kneaded in the salt.    See attached pics

« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 07:29:35 AM by theodoros »

Offline theodoros

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 28
  • Location: New York
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Theo's basic pizza making quest
« Reply #11 on: July 01, 2020, 07:26:50 AM »
In addition to what have been said above, keeping your exact formula I would tweak 2 things:
- add 3% EVOO, which will help for the handling properties + a better crust result, assuming that you bake around 300°C;
- if it's not the case let your dough proofing at RT after taking out from the fridge. Tom Lehmann would suggest to wait till the dough ball is at RT (18-20°C), within an hour or two, before baking.

That my thought exactly... in the next batch I will add EVOO. Unfortunately the max temp of my oven is 260ºC. 

My idea is to experiment and learn the nuances of each ingredient and how it changes the taste and experience of pizza.

Offline Yael

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1512
  • Location: A French in China
  • French Pizza !
    • my Wechat page
Re: Theo's basic pizza making quest
« Reply #12 on: July 01, 2020, 09:37:38 AM »
That my thought exactly... in the next batch I will add EVOO. Unfortunately the max temp of my oven is 260ºC. 

My idea is to experiment and learn the nuances of each ingredient and how it changes the taste and experience of pizza.

Yes of course and you will, but if you're new at pizza making, I suggest you find a solid formula & procedure that will be your basis. Make it a couple of times, so you can "impregnate" yourself with the result, this way you will see/understand more clearly any further change!

If you're sure your yeast isn't dead, then it's definitely under-fermented.
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline theodoros

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 28
  • Location: New York
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Theo's basic pizza making quest
« Reply #13 on: July 01, 2020, 10:11:54 AM »
Yes of course and you will, but if you're new at pizza making, I suggest you find a solid formula & procedure that will be your basis. Make it a couple of times, so you can "impregnate" yourself with the result, this way you will see/understand more clearly any further change!

If you're sure your yeast isn't dead, then it's definitely under-fermented.

Perfect.  what do you think of high gluten flour. Corkd suggested that I increase the hydration to at least 65%.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 10:19:57 AM by theodoros »

Offline Yael

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1512
  • Location: A French in China
  • French Pizza !
    • my Wechat page
Re: Theo's basic pizza making quest
« Reply #14 on: July 01, 2020, 08:45:58 PM »
It depends on your "High-gluten flour", ok let's say it's a standard North American 12%-12.5% protein.
As Corkd suggested, 65% hydration should be a reasonable HR (60% are ok with Italian 12-12.5% protein flours).

When I suggested adding 3% EVOO, that would bring the total liquid level to 64%, I think that's ok too. And I highly recommend you add oil, specially for the final product: oil will keep moisture in your crust, so that's important with your long and low baking temperature!
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline theodoros

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 28
  • Location: New York
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Theo's basic pizza making quest
« Reply #15 on: July 01, 2020, 09:38:24 PM »
Yeah it can be a little overwhelming, and easy to go down multiple rabbit holes. Maybe try a few “emergency” doughs- those made with lots of yeast that are proofed in a few hours. They can give you good quick experience in handling & shaping.

so many rabbit holes. It is very overwhelming.  I wish there was a source that went from steps a through z

Offline typicalsam

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 86
  • Location: UK
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Theo's basic pizza making quest
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2020, 09:59:33 AM »
so many rabbit holes. It is very overwhelming.  I wish there was a source that went from steps a through z
dont we all

i think even that task is too daunting for the experts here - most advice comes with several caveats and threads that link to threads that link to... etc

we almost need a beginner with plenty of time on their hands to put together a very basic guide for other beginners (i am not volunteering)

Offline Pizza_Not_War

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1075
  • Location: Portland OR
Re: Theo's basic pizza making quest
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2020, 10:58:49 AM »
so many rabbit holes. It is very overwhelming.  I wish there was a source that went from steps a through z
There are a lot of sources with steps. Many pizza books do a great job of it. Find one you like, follow it and then after you master it you can start to experiment with lots of options you read on here. Just bouncing around with the various advice you get from a forum can make it harder to accomplish the goals.


Offline theodoros

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 28
  • Location: New York
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Theo's basic pizza making quest
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2020, 03:32:44 PM »
There are a lot of sources with steps. Many pizza books do a great job of it. Find one you like, follow it and then after you master it you can start to experiment with lots of options you read on here. Just bouncing around with the various advice you get from a forum can make it harder to accomplish the goals.

Ive read pizza bible and mastering pizza. Both are interesting; mastering pizza more so. However, none really teach you the craft. Vetri is overly complicated for my skill set. My oven is maxed at 260ºC. I dont even know how to shape a 85% hydrated dough. I tried it and it made a mess of my kitchen. 

I really feel pizza is a personal journey. There is my pizza, I just have to go through the trials and tribulations to discover it.

There are core elements of pizza:
  • ingredient mastery: how each ingredient and its change affects final product
  • dough making
  • dough management
  • dough shaping
  • heat transfer with low and high heat
  • toppings mastery

The above books barely scratch the surface.  I've been making pies since the beginning. Im just getting better each time and understanding more

Offline theodoros

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 28
  • Location: New York
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Theo's basic pizza making quest
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2020, 03:35:46 PM »
dont we all

i think even that task is too daunting for the experts here - most advice comes with several caveats and threads that link to threads that link to... etc

we almost need a beginner with plenty of time on their hands to put together a very basic guide for other beginners (i am not volunteering)

maybe it is something i will do one day. I need to pass through the hurdles first ;) You're opinions and insights are always welcome :)) Im learning so much from everyone

A D V E R T I S E M E N T