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Author Topic: Caputo Nuvola - help please :)  (Read 275 times)

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Offline Cp30

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Caputo Nuvola - help please :)
« on: June 30, 2020, 06:30:02 PM »
Hi,

I've been making my own pizzas for our ooni oven for a couple of years and we've had reasonable success with short proof with basic 00 flour but wanted to try and improve and I'm very keen to make pizzas with that lovely big airy cornicione.

I've treated myself to 25kg of Caputo Nuvola to try and help me, but so far I've had pretty poor results.

I was advised that the Caputo Nuvola worked best with an 18-24 room temp proof.

I've attached the recipe I last used, along with some pictures which show how my dough balls flattened.

I made my dough by first mixing the flour and water only and leaving for one hour.

I then hand mixed the dough along with Caputo active dry yeast and then, after a few minutes, incorporated the salt.

I mixed until I felt the dough was smooth and passed the window pane test.

I then bulk fermented over night for 14 hours at RT which I think would have averaged around 22 but possible a little more at times, hard to know for sure the average with current weather.

After the 14 hour bulk proof, I balled up using light dusting of flour to prevent sticking and then proofed for a further 4 hours before stretching and cooking.

As you will see from the pictures, the dough balls flattened but I didn't have time to reball and wait a further 3/4 hours as I had hungry guests (only in the garden and socially distanced of course! :))

The dough seemed delicate to stretch and we got some rise in the crust but certainly more dense that I would have wanted and a long way from the cornicione that I crave.

I'd really appreciate any help or advice that anyone can offer on how I can improve my results. I'm guessing that the dough over proofed based on the dough balls collapsing, but I'm not sure what to do to avoid this, less yeast, less proof time, some fridge time?

Many thanks in advance for any guidance you can provide.

Cp
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 06:37:05 PM by Cp30 »

Offline Cp30

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Re: Caputo Nuvola - help please :)
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2020, 06:32:13 PM »
Sorry forgot pic of dough balls at start of 4 hour proof.

Thanks again

Cp
« Last Edit: June 30, 2020, 06:35:59 PM by Cp30 »

Offline ak47e6

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Re: Caputo Nuvola - help please :)
« Reply #2 on: July 01, 2020, 07:06:10 AM »
End results look good, but you could try a % or 2 less hydration which should reduce the amount the balls flatten. I have found the pizza app also adds a bit to much yeast so I have found good results adding 2 to 3c to the fermentation temp and that usually gets me closer to the time I have specified in the app.  Again this is all dependent on so many more factors so I often spend the day watching the dough and moving to different spots in my house which may be colder or warmer to speed up or slow down the fermentation.

Edit
And I mean add 2c to 3c to the temp in the app not your room temp. So if your RT is 22c use 24c or 25c in the app.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2020, 10:45:02 AM by ak47e6 »

Offline 2ndtimearound

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Re: Caputo Nuvola - help please :)
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2020, 12:15:51 PM »
I've had very good results with a 50/50 mix nuvola and caputo pizzeria at 65% hydro. For me the nuvola is a bit too dense on its own.

Offline Cp30

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Re: Caputo Nuvola - help please :)
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2020, 07:22:15 AM »
End results look good, but you could try a % or 2 less hydration which should reduce the amount the balls flatten. I have found the pizza app also adds a bit to much yeast so I have found good results adding 2 to 3c to the fermentation temp and that usually gets me closer to the time I have specified in the app.  Again this is all dependent on so many more factors so I often spend the day watching the dough and moving to different spots in my house which may be colder or warmer to speed up or slow down the fermentation.

Edit
And I mean add 2c to 3c to the temp in the app not your room temp. So if your RT is 22c use 24c or 25c in the app.

Thanks for this.  No need for the edit - would have definitely asked more questions if I thought your advice was to increase the temp in my room!  :-D

Next time I will add 2/3c to RT in PizzaApp and try with the new reduced yeast value it shows and see how that goes.

Interesting to hear that you spend the day keeping an eye on the dough, once I have balled the dough then I'd feel comfortable in noticing if they were starting to look a little flat, but during the bulk fermentation, what would you be looking for in order to make a decision that you wanted to move it somewhere cooler/warmer?

Also, if you had decided that you felt the dough needed somewhere cooler but there was nowhere in your house, would you consider putting in the refrigerator for a period of time to slow things down?

Thank you for your help.

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Offline Cp30

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Re: Caputo Nuvola - help please :)
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2020, 07:23:38 AM »
I've had very good results with a 50/50 mix nuvola and caputo pizzeria at 65% hydro. For me the nuvola is a bit too dense on its own.

Thanks, I will try and get some Pizzeria and give that a go too.  But I have seen some very impressive and airy results on facebook/instagram and they stated that the flour was 100% Caputo Nuvola, so I'm also keen to try and get better results with just Nuvola too.

Offline scott r

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Re: Caputo Nuvola - help please :)
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2020, 09:19:23 AM »
hmmm... this is interesting.   What puzzles me is the look of the dough.   The dough almost looks to have 2 colors after rising in bulk, like the top inch of it is a darker than the rest of it, and it looks almost grey not white.   Thats not something I have seen before using commercial yeast.

For sure the hydration is too high for the amount of mixing that happened.  this can be seen by how much the dough balls spread out in the ball stage.  You could either drop hydration or do a lot more mixing, either one or would work.   When doughs are this wet you almost cant mix enough, but if you build up lots of strength you can be rewarded with some really great crust in the end as long as your oven temp isn't so high that you end up with a layer of raw dough.  Some stretch and folds during the bulk rise would have helped you a lot here to build more strength.  The good news is that because the dough was so wet you were still able to make a good pizza without having a lot of rise to the dough.  If this had been a dryer dough it would not have turned out as well, and the pizza looks good!

Im curious, in the 2nd picture of the bulk rise... is that right before you scaled/balled the dough?  If so, I don't think you had enough rise time or you could have definitely used MORE yeast not less.  Using commercial yeast you are probably going to have your best results if the dough actually doubles in size during bulk before you form the dough balls.  This flour can tolerate a good amount of rise too, so even if you went a little past a double in bulk (assuming you keep your short time in balls and wet dough) you would probably be happier with the end product.  You could just keep everything the same with stretch and folds during early bulk, and let it go close to the 10-12pt mark on your cambro before scaling and try again.   

Same goes for the balls themselves and the amount of rise you are looking for.   You want again to see a large amount of growth, filling with lots of gas, and therefore baking up with large holes and a lighter structure.  That spreading out of the balls makes them look like they grew, but I think all they really did is spread out and not actually get much larger in volume.

While I totally agree that the 50/50 blend of caputo Nuvola and pizzeria is a great one, I have been making lots of excellent light fluffy doughs with straight Nuvola, so I wouldnt worry too much about running out and buying a different flour just yet.  Sometimes its best when starting out to minimize the variables that you are changing to really hone in.

I really like all these caluclators apps and charts that are out there, but they can be dangerous.  Some yeast is much slower to act than others depending on storage conditions/age etc.   I wouldnt worry too much about what they are telling you and go with your gut, along with the look and feel of your dough.  You want gas production before you bake.  I have had some IDY that even if kept in the fridge after opening needs almost double the amount to achieve the same rise in the same amount of time as another IDY.

Good luck and keep us posted with your success and failures.   You have the right idea about giving us lots of info and pictures.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 09:44:54 AM by scott r »

Offline Cp30

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Re: Caputo Nuvola - help please :)
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2020, 07:43:22 AM »
hmmm... this is interesting.   What puzzles me is the look of the dough.   The dough almost looks to have 2 colors after rising in bulk, like the top inch of it is a darker than the rest of it, and it looks almost grey not white.   Thats not something I have seen before using commercial yeast.

For sure the hydration is too high for the amount of mixing that happened.  this can be seen by how much the dough balls spread out in the ball stage.  You could either drop hydration or do a lot more mixing, either one or would work.   When doughs are this wet you almost cant mix enough, but if you build up lots of strength you can be rewarded with some really great crust in the end as long as your oven temp isn't so high that you end up with a layer of raw dough.  Some stretch and folds during the bulk rise would have helped you a lot here to build more strength.  The good news is that because the dough was so wet you were still able to make a good pizza without having a lot of rise to the dough.  If this had been a dryer dough it would not have turned out as well, and the pizza looks good!

Im curious, in the 2nd picture of the bulk rise... is that right before you scaled/balled the dough?  If so, I don't think you had enough rise time or you could have definitely used MORE yeast not less.  Using commercial yeast you are probably going to have your best results if the dough actually doubles in size during bulk before you form the dough balls.  This flour can tolerate a good amount of rise too, so even if you went a little past a double in bulk (assuming you keep your short time in balls and wet dough) you would probably be happier with the end product.  You could just keep everything the same with stretch and folds during early bulk, and let it go close to the 10-12pt mark on your cambro before scaling and try again.   

Same goes for the balls themselves and the amount of rise you are looking for.   You want again to see a large amount of growth, filling with lots of gas, and therefore baking up with large holes and a lighter structure.  That spreading out of the balls makes them look like they grew, but I think all they really did is spread out and not actually get much larger in volume.

While I totally agree that the 50/50 blend of caputo Nuvola and pizzeria is a great one, I have been making lots of excellent light fluffy doughs with straight Nuvola, so I wouldnt worry too much about running out and buying a different flour just yet.  Sometimes its best when starting out to minimize the variables that you are changing to really hone in.

I really like all these caluclators apps and charts that are out there, but they can be dangerous.  Some yeast is much slower to act than others depending on storage conditions/age etc.   I wouldnt worry too much about what they are telling you and go with your gut, along with the look and feel of your dough.  You want gas production before you bake.  I have had some IDY that even if kept in the fridge after opening needs almost double the amount to achieve the same rise in the same amount of time as another IDY.

Good luck and keep us posted with your success and failures.   You have the right idea about giving us lots of info and pictures.

Thanks so much - sounds like great advice.  More years does make sense as, like you say, it didn't double in size at end of bulk proof. 

I think that I'll aim to increase the years a little and also add in some stretch and folds during the bulk ferment.

I'll let you know how I get on - I've bought a 0.001g scale so that I can try and make some smaller batches to experiment and tweak recipe/process. 

Will post back some updates on how I get on.

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