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Offline BostonBestEats

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Consequences of over-fermenting dough
« on: July 02, 2020, 11:31:47 AM »
This is more of a theoretical question than I want someone to explain why my latest dough batch was a bit weird...

What are the typical consequences of over-fermenting on the appearance of the dough ball, streching performance, and the resultant pizza?  I want to better understand how varying my fermentation times (both bulk and cold) might affect the outcome so I can recognize the consequences when they happen.

As background, my dough: 100% KABF, 65% water, 0.24% IDY, 2.17% salt, and dough temp after mixer =79F.  I do a two-stage fermentation: 1) bulk for 5 hr at 72F; 2) ball and cold ferment for 24-72 hr.  Bake at 700-750F in a Breville Pizzaiolo for 90-150 sec.

Thanks!

Offline ochsavidare

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Re: Consequences of over-fermenting dough
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2020, 02:19:13 PM »
One typical sign of over fermenting is that the gluten network has deteriorated, and the longer the fermentation is allowed to continue the more it will deteriorate. This will make the dough loose all structure, and it will e.g. tear easily when you try to stretch it. If it was a bread it would spread out and go flat in the oven since there would be no gluten to hold the shape.

Offline HansB

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Re: Consequences of over-fermenting dough
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2020, 02:32:35 PM »
Sugars may be exhausted, so there won't be much crust browning.
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Consequences of over-fermenting dough
« Reply #3 on: July 02, 2020, 03:29:12 PM »
I want to better understand how varying my fermentation times (both bulk and cold) might affect the outcome so I can recognize the consequences when they happen.

This is a really deep subject.  The fermentation time will depend on many factors, how much yeast is used, the recipe, the final dough temperature, the various temperatures the dough is kept at, how quickly it changes temperature.  The maturation time might wary depending on what ingredients you use and what result you desire.

When you ball the dough, you stimulate it again, you move nutrients closer to the yeast, and you tighten the gluten web.  This wakes the dough up again and makes it more active.  Personally I don't like to ball dough that has had much activity and I prefer to do it early.

Balling the dough too late might lead to balls that are tenacious and hard to extend.

On the other hand balling the dough too early (also depending on hydration, salt level, and amount of gluten developed) might lead to balls that spread out too much and that lose structure making them hard to extend.

Over fermented dough can also make for great pizza, you just have to learn how to handle it on the bench and in the oven.  I normally prefer a short fermentation/maturation, balling early, and between 65 to 100% dough expansion when I bake.  I might be committing major errors :)
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Consequences of over-fermenting dough
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2020, 03:52:06 PM »
BostonBestEats,

amolapizza presented the matter nicely. In addition to what he said, you might want to take a look at the entry PROTEASE ENZYMES in the forum's Pizza Glossary at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_p

You should also look at the entry for BIOCHEMICAL GLUTEN DEVELOPMENT at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#biochemical

You might even scan all of the entries in the Pizza Glossary to see if there are other terms that help you better understand the fermentation process.

Peter

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Offline BostonBestEats

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Re: Consequences of over-fermenting dough
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2020, 04:23:49 PM »
Sugars may be exhausted, so there won't be much crust browning.

That might explain why my recent dough batch (which I suspect was over-fermented, and I definitely went 6+ hours on the RT ferment vs the usual 5) took longer to reach the color I expected in the oven (usually 90-100 sec, this time more like 150 sec).  Dough balls were also more spread and bubbly than normal after 24 or 48 hr cold ferment.  After 72 hr CF, my last ball today was way too easy to open, basically fell open in my hands.

I need to explore a shorter RT ferment too, since the recipe I'm following recommends 65F and my RT is more like 72F so I may always be pushing the limit.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2020, 04:27:32 PM by BostonBestEats »

Offline jpaul

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Re: Consequences of over-fermenting dough
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2020, 03:31:03 AM »
I think I have over-fermented dough. it is too soft to handle.  My IDY is 0.375% and there is 2% sugar and 58% water and 2% oil and I follow Dough Doctor's Dough management process where after mixing, I weigh and ball the dough and straight to the fridge overnight.  after about 16 to 18 hours, it still rises pretty well.  I use a commercial chiller set at 0C to 4C.  by the time I warm it up, it has expanded so much!


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Consequences of over-fermenting dough
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2020, 09:55:10 AM »
I use a commercial chiller set at 0C to 4C.  by the time I warm it up, it has expanded so much!
jpaul,

Have you checked the internal temperature of the dough balls when you are about to make pizzas? Tom Lehmann advocates an internal temperature of about 55-60 degrees F (about 13-16 degrees C). See, for example, Reply 3 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=59475.msg596576;topicseen#msg596576

Peter

Offline scott r

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Re: Consequences of over-fermenting dough
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2020, 11:24:35 PM »
jpaul,

Have you checked the internal temperature of the dough balls when you are about to make pizzas? Tom Lehmann advocates an internal temperature of about 55-60 degrees F (about 13-16 degrees C). See, for example, Reply 3 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=59475.msg596576;topicseen#msg596576

Peter

But lots of people like room temp too.   I think it might have to do with oven temp.  For me its room temp all the way, and im not even baking at Neapolitan temps.

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Consequences of over-fermenting dough
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2020, 10:57:40 PM »
The BIGGEST consequence (IMO) is the lack of crust colour development and the resulting tough, pale, floppy dough. Is your dough chewy?? Does it not brown well?? Is "crispy" the last word you would use to describe your dough?? It's probably overfermented. My pizzas will literally BREAK when I lift them up to look underneath to check for "doneness"... the crust is so crispy that you can HEAR the cutters, cutting them when they come out of the oven.

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Offline jpaul

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Re: Consequences of over-fermenting dough
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2020, 11:57:59 PM »
jpaul,

Have you checked the internal temperature of the dough balls when you are about to make pizzas? Tom Lehmann advocates an internal temperature of about 55-60 degrees F (about 13-16 degrees C). See, for example, Reply 3 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=59475.msg596576;topicseen#msg596576

Peter

Hi Peter,

I think I am way above the 55F to 60F dough temp range before opening the dough.  I'll check this next time.  Can I poke the dough with an instant read thermometer? How should I test the internal dough temp?

I think my final dough temp needs adjusting.  I'm using water with ice to control my final dough temp.  Room temp in the Manil is 88F so its a struggle for me to keep everything down.  I do, however, have a commercial chiller that I can set to 0C or even lower.  Maybe that will help cool down the doughs faster. I'm going to do a lot of adjustments in the dough management process and final dough temp is one of them. 

I'm wondering if I can still do autolyse considering I want my dough temp to be lower.  Can I autolyse inside the chiller to still keep the temp down?

Thanks!
« Last Edit: July 05, 2020, 10:22:32 AM by jpaul »

Offline jpaul

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Re: Consequences of over-fermenting dough
« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2020, 12:00:06 AM »
But lots of people like room temp too.   I think it might have to do with oven temp.  For me its room temp all the way, and im not even baking at Neapolitan temps.

My room temp here is 88F and a lot are saying it is too warm.  For the oven, I use a Middleby Marshall impingement oven set at 550F.  I do get a bit of color and crunch underneath but my rim is the biggest issue.  It looks pale and unappetizing! I'll try improving my dough management.

Offline jpaul

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Re: Consequences of over-fermenting dough
« Reply #12 on: July 05, 2020, 12:02:08 AM »
The BIGGEST consequence (IMO) is the lack of crust colour development and the resulting tough, pale, floppy dough. Is your dough chewy?? Does it not brown well?? Is "crispy" the last word you would use to describe your dough?? It's probably overfermented. My pizzas will literally BREAK when I lift them up to look underneath to check for "doneness"... the crust is so crispy that you can HEAR the cutters, cutting them when they come out of the oven.

I get a bit of crisp at the bottom but i think my dough is overfermented.  The doughs have risen so much even if I kept them in a commercial chiller.  I suspect @Peter is correct that one of my issues is the final dough temp before it hits the chiller.  This thread has been really helpful!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Consequences of over-fermenting dough
« Reply #13 on: July 05, 2020, 01:13:21 PM »
Hi Peter,

I think I am way above the 55F to 60F dough temp range before opening the dough.  I'll check this next time.  Can I poke the dough with an instant read thermometer? How should I test the internal dough temp?

I think my final dough temp needs adjusting.  I'm using water with ice to control my final dough temp.  Room temp in the Manil is 88F so its a struggle for me to keep everything down.  I do, however, have a commercial chiller that I can set to 0C or even lower.  Maybe that will help cool down the doughs faster. I'm going to do a lot of adjustments in the dough management process and final dough temp is one of them. 

I'm wondering if I can still do autolyse considering I want my dough temp to be lower.  Can I autolyse inside the chiller to still keep the temp down?

Thanks!
jpaul,

It is fine to use an instant read thermometer of the stem or stick type. You don't want to use an IR gun since that will only give the surface temperature, not the internal temperature. I once asked Tom if it would work to poke a finger into the dough and then use the IR in the hole, or maybe poke the dough with a probe and then use the IR. You can read his answer at Reply 13 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=60027.msg603088#msg603088

As for the autolyse, I am not sure how that will work in a cold environment. However, it is important to keep in mind that there are protease enzymes in the dough that operate to attack and soften the gluten structure during the autolyse rest period. Also, protease enzymes are temperature sensitive, as I noted in Reply 35 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14610.msg145978;topicseen#msg145978

Reply 35 discusses high temperatures, so it is not entirely clear what low temperatures such as you are considering will do to the protease enzymes. In fact, I don't ever recall autolysis being performed at very low temperatures. Maybe using warm water for the autolyse and giving the autolyzed dough more time to work before placing it into the cooler will work. But I have never seen it done before. Maybe you can be the first, at least on this forum, to do so ;D.

For some additional background information, you may want to take a look at the AUTOLYSE and PROTEASE entries in the forum's Pizza Glossary at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_a and https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_p, respectively.

Peter

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Consequences of over-fermenting dough
« Reply #14 on: July 05, 2020, 02:07:10 PM »
88F is high for pizza dough.  I'd forego the autolysis (why complicate your life)..  You could try using higher salt levels, maybe 55-60g per Litre and reduce the yeast amount and maturation/fermentation time, otherwise probably the wisest course of action is to let it bulk ferment for a while to get fermentation started, then ball it and place the balls in the fridge.  Remove a while before baking, just enough to finish the fermentation and to get to a nice work temperature for the ball.

Of course you'll have to make some experiments to figure when to ball and place in the fridge, how long to let the balls come up to temperature and how much yeast to use.
Jack

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Consequences of over-fermenting dough
« Reply #15 on: July 05, 2020, 03:07:52 PM »
jpaul,

As usual, amolapizza (Jack) raises some good points.

I think it is important to keep in mind that the autolyse process came out of the bread making world, not from the pizza side. And part of the reason for using the autolyse method was to speed up the preparation of the dough. Typically, most bread doughs have a mixing (including the autolyse component) and bulk fermentation phase, and later that is followed by a dividing, weighing and proofing stage that precedes baking. In his book, The Taste of Bread, Prof. Calvel has a chart, at page 47, that shows the duration of the foregoing processes. Several of the types of bread doughs shown in the chart consume about 4-6 hours. The longest, for a naturally leavened dough using a preferment, is just under nine hours. So, we are not talking about long cold fermentation times.

Notwithstanding the foregoing, we do have members who like to use the autolyse method for pizza making. I have no problem with that. And it doesn't bother me that they may elect to use the autolyse method even if they alter it from the basics as discussed in Prof. Calvel's book. I actually like to see the members play around with the use of autolyse if only for the "learning" part of the experience. On the other hand, I can't argue with what Jack says.

Peter

Offline jpaul

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Re: Consequences of over-fermenting dough
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2020, 10:20:59 PM »
88F is high for pizza dough.  I'd forego the autolysis (why complicate your life)..  You could try using higher salt levels, maybe 55-60g per Litre and reduce the yeast amount and maturation/fermentation time, otherwise probably the wisest course of action is to let it bulk ferment for a while to get fermentation started, then ball it and place the balls in the fridge.  Remove a while before baking, just enough to finish the fermentation and to get to a nice work temperature for the ball.

Of course you'll have to make some experiments to figure when to ball and place in the fridge, how long to let the balls come up to temperature and how much yeast to use.

I think I will skip autolysis as you suggested and focus more on improving what I currently have.  I'm able to achieve a finished dough temp of about 80F using cold water.  What I missed doing is leaving the dough container open for the first few hours in the chiller.  Then probably I'll reduce IDY content.  Right now, i'm using 0.375% IDY.  What would be a food IDY %? I was thinking of 0.250%. Any thoughts?

Offline jpaul

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Re: Consequences of over-fermenting dough
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2020, 11:37:06 PM »
jpaul,

It is fine to use an instant read thermometer of the stem or stick type. You don't want to use an IR gun since that will only give the surface temperature, not the internal temperature. I once asked Tom if it would work to poke a finger into the dough and then use the IR in the hole, or maybe poke the dough with a probe and then use the IR. You can read his answer at Reply 13 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=60027.msg603088#msg603088

As for the autolyse, I am not sure how that will work in a cold environment. However, it is important to keep in mind that there are protease enzymes in the dough that operate to attack and soften the gluten structure during the autolyse rest period. Also, protease enzymes are temperature sensitive, as I noted in Reply 35 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14610.msg145978;topicseen#msg145978

Reply 35 discusses high temperatures, so it is not entirely clear what low temperatures such as you are considering will do to the protease enzymes. In fact, I don't ever recall autolysis being performed at very low temperatures. Maybe using warm water for the autolyse and giving the autolyzed dough more time to work before placing it into the cooler will work. But I have never seen it done before. Maybe you can be the first, at least on this forum, to do so ;D.

For some additional background information, you may want to take a look at the AUTOLYSE and PROTEASE entries in the forum's Pizza Glossary at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_a and https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_p, respectively.

Peter

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the links to the references.  It helps me better understand what is happening to the dough.  As mentioned, there are a lot of things in my dough management process that needs to be tweaked and hope to share my learnings throughout this process.  I might try doing an autolyse at room temp then chill it so I still end up with an 80F dough temp after mixing.

 

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Consequences of over-fermenting dough
« Reply #18 on: July 07, 2020, 04:46:18 AM »
I think I will skip autolysis as you suggested and focus more on improving what I currently have.  I'm able to achieve a finished dough temp of about 80F using cold water.  What I missed doing is leaving the dough container open for the first few hours in the chiller.  Then probably I'll reduce IDY content.  Right now, i'm using 0.375% IDY.  What would be a food IDY %? I was thinking of 0.250%. Any thoughts?

I'm not sure I can help you with the yeast amount to use.  If you follow the same procedure just try a bit less, and keep trying until you are happy with the results.  If 0.375% was too much, maybe try 0.25% or 0.3% next time and see what happens.

A few things to keep in mind.  The speed of the fermentation is mainly determined by the health and amount of yeast, and by the dough temperature itself.  Other factors that come in to play are hydration and the salt level, the higher the hydration the faster the fermentation, the higher the salt content the slower the fermentation.

As regards the dough temperature, it's important what the temperature is once you've finished mixing it and at what temperature it's kept at during bulk and ball stages. The size of the dough will also influence how quickly it changes temperature, a bigger mass will take longer time to cool off than the smaller balls.

But given a specific recipe, you can fine tune your dough by controlling the temperatures and the yeast amount that you use.  You'll achieve more consistent results the tighter you control the temperatures.

When creating your dough management procedure, keep in mind convenience!  Make the dough when it's most convenient for you, ball it when it's most convenient for you.  Don't be a slave of your dough or some specific time schedule.  By using the fridge to retard the dough, you can really fine tune everything for maximum convenience.  I don't remember what you said you used for refrigeration, but if it's opened often the temperature can be higher and it will be more difficult to be precise.

This whole sermon is from someone that doesn't use a fridge unless the temperatures are really extreme.  I try to get by with looking for a steady temperature and varying the yeast amount slightly depending on the current conditions and the desired fermentation times.  Still once it starts getting really hot, it is really useful to use a fridge to have better control over fermentation.

There are also charts and dough calculators that can help in finding a reasonable starting point, still it's just a starting point and needs to be refined by the actual results.

Best of luck!
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline jpaul

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Re: Consequences of over-fermenting dough
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2020, 04:44:35 AM »
Thanks amolapizza!

I'll fine-tune my dough management process and see if improves my dough properties.

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