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Author Topic: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading  (Read 1934 times)

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Offline munselln8

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Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« on: July 19, 2020, 02:06:33 PM »
Hey Guys,
I've been working this NY recipe for about a year or so and am pretty happy with my results but 1 small thing is bugging me. I am using All Trumps B&B with 65% hydration. It works really well, just like I remember from back in my Pizzeria days. The chew is nice, browns well, takes the ol' NY Fold, etc... Just one thing...I feel like the cornicione is a little dense. Not quite as airy as I would like. I feel like 65% hydration should be plenty, but it is still a little tight in the crust. Here is my question. After mixing all ingredients in the stand mixer with hook, I routinely throw it on the board and knead for somewhere between three and five minutes (until silky consistency). Now, when I begin kneading I am dusting the board and the dough with flour (same ATB&B). I knead it a few turns and then it starts getting sticky again so I dust with a bit more flour. Knead some more and it gets a bit sticky, more dusting, etc... I might dust it three times maybe. so...is this flour dusting essentially changing my hydration ratio? am I reducing my 65% hydration down to 55% or whatever by adding all the dusting flour?  Could this be the cause of a tight cornicione? Note: 1.6% ADY, cooked at 500f for about 7 minutes.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 02:09:20 PM by munselln8 »

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2020, 08:02:13 PM »
I dont have a great feel for this stuff. So I'd be tempted to toss 3 dustings worth onto a scale and see how much that's changing your hydration.

There are likely other factors at play too. Describing your process more (including how long you ferment) and posting some pictures will help.

Matt

Offline naval2006

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2020, 08:46:08 PM »
Your pizza looks great.

Itís better to restrain from dusting when mixing together. I too learned through experience and some frustration to wait until the dough is smooth through kneading. I also found out what the hydration index is with the type of flour Iím using. In my case if I go from 58% to 62% I get the Tom Lehmann dough you work beautifully. More hydration and the workflow starts to get tougher.

But a dense crumb is usually more to do with rising time/amount of yeast than anything else if you already have a proven formula.

Alex
« Last Edit: July 19, 2020, 08:50:46 PM by naval2006 »

Offline munselln8

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #3 on: July 19, 2020, 09:06:10 PM »
Thanks for the input folks. To shore up the details here is my complete recipe:
Dough: 100%
Water: 66%
Sugar: 2.4%
Salt: 1.6%
ADY: 1.6%
EVOO: 5%

I generally mix all dry ingredients, then add water. Mix until well combined, then add oil until it is taken up. I then knead dough for 3 - 5 Minutes, while dusting with the same flour in the dough (AT B&B). Once the dough is silky I ball it and place it in a large boil lubed with EVOO. I then lightly oil the top of the ball with the same EVOO and allow to proof for around two hours.
I then place in the back of the fridge for 24 hours. I then remove from fridge 2 hours before opening.
I'll try making another NY style next weekend without dusting and see if it rises more in the bake. Thanks again!

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #4 on: July 19, 2020, 09:34:58 PM »
Have you always used so much oil (5%)?
Matt

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Offline munselln8

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #5 on: July 19, 2020, 10:03:32 PM »
Hammetjr,
Short answer, yes. I m having trouble remembering where the recommendation came from or how I came about using 5% but, yes Been using it for a while now. Do you think it could be retarding the rise in the crust? How much are most of y'all using? I am happy to field suggestions :-) Thanks!

Offline jsaras

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2020, 10:17:05 PM »
Thanks for the input folks. To shore up the details here is my complete recipe:
Dough: 100%
Water: 66%
Sugar: 2.4%
Salt: 1.6%
ADY: 1.6%
EVOO: 5%

I generally mix all dry ingredients, then add water. Mix until well combined, then add oil until it is taken up. I then knead dough for 3 - 5 Minutes, while dusting with the same flour in the dough (AT B&B). Once the dough is silky I ball it and place it in a large boil lubed with EVOO. I then lightly oil the top of the ball with the same EVOO and allow to proof for around two hours.
I then place in the back of the fridge for 24 hours. I then remove from fridge 2 hours before opening.
I'll try making another NY style next weekend without dusting and see if it rises more in the bake. Thanks again!
Thatís also a lot of sugar, particularly for the style.  Iíd drop that to 1%, in addition to lowering the oil.
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Offline Rolls

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2020, 11:51:42 PM »
To figure out how much the bench flour is affecting the hydration percentage, I would take precise measurements of your ingredients and then weigh the dough after the mixing phase in order to account for any residual dough left behind in the bowl.  Then weigh the dough after your usual hand mixing routine and you should be able to calculate the actual hydration rate.

To get better oven spring I'd also try cold fermenting the dough for longer time period in the fridge.  In my experience, the same dough will have a noticeably puffier rim on day 3 or 4 compared to day 1.  I'd also reduce the amount of yeast in your formula.


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Offline Yael

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2020, 01:37:52 AM »
Another potential solution would be to let your dough rest 15-30min after mixing/kneading, then make some folding. No need for dusting. Repeat 2 or 3 times till the dough isn't sticky anymore.
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Offline munselln8

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2020, 08:49:31 PM »
Thanks Everyone, Nice suggestions. Honestly, I know I should make just one change at a time but pretty much all of these suggestions make sense in what I want to accomplish. I'm gonna make my next one with no dusting and give it a 48hr. cold ferment. Actually I may cut the oil also since I think it may be toughening up the dough. I remember now that I began adding oil because Kenzi Lopez-alt suggested it would build a stronger gluten network and be easier to open up without tearing (Back when I was using KA BF). You guys have given me a lot to think about. I appreciate the help. Happy Pizza everyone!
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 07:11:47 AM by munselln8 »

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Offline munselln8

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2020, 07:53:06 PM »
Well, that was a BUST! Y'all get no pictures because it went in the trash. :-[ :'( Dropped oil to 1.6% as suggested, dropped sugar to 1.6%, and did NOT use any flour for dusting. Left yeast alone for now. Here is the good: I learned that you can still get a nice silky dough ball without dusting if you just have a SH!!T ton of patience. It took about 20 minutes of kneading (just folding at first, then more like kneading as it cam together). And that's it for the good. I let it rest at RT for two hours then into the fridge for just 36 hours. Pulled it and let rest at RT two hours prior to opening.
As soon as I lifted it from the bowl I had a bad feeling about it. It was SUPER stretchy but with almost no elasticity. Reminded me of my early efforts with low-protein, all-purpose flour. It would stretch so quickly and so extremely that I couldn't actually pick the entire thing up off the bench. You know that feel where you just know it's gonna tear a huge hole right in the middle if you lift it? Well, that was it. For a pie that should have had a TF of .91 this pie was SO thin in the center that it blew open on launch, cheese and sauce stuck to the stone and half of it never made it out of the oven. Bitter ...and I mean bitter disappointment. Also...While I expected the higher hydration to result in a fluffier cornice...the exact opposite: Even less oven spring than before. Also, while the bottom browned well enough, the cornice was basically white. I was thinking my yeast might be off but the dough was bigger than usual coming out of cold ferment. The workability of this dough was HORRIBLE. I honestly can't remember the last time I made a dough this hard to work with...years ago maybe? All this from dropping the oil and flour dusting?? I'm at a loss.
So, to save you all re-reading the thread, here is the recipe breakdown. Thoughts on this disaster?
AT B&B: 100%
Water: 66%
Salt: 1.6%
Sugar: 1.6%
Yeast: 1.6%
oil: 1.6

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #11 on: July 26, 2020, 09:02:56 PM »
munselln8,

I have the following questions:

1. Did you use the ADY dry or did you pre-hydrate it and, if so, how did you do it?

2. What was the temperature of the formula water? And was all of the water at that temperature?

3. Did you measure the temperature of the dough when it was done mixing?

4. How did you arrive at 1.6% ADY as the amount of yeast to use?

5. How did you arrive at 1.6% salt as the amount to use?

6. What was the weight of the dough ball and what was the size of the pizza you made using that dough ball?
 
7. Since you mentioned Kenji, by any chance was it one of his recipes that you used?

Peter


Offline munselln8

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2020, 08:04:52 AM »
munselln8,

I have the following questions:

1. Did you use the ADY dry or did you pre-hydrate it and, if so, how did you do it?

2. What was the temperature of the formula water? And was all of the water at that temperature?

3. Did you measure the temperature of the dough when it was done mixing?

4. How did you arrive at 1.6% ADY as the amount of yeast to use?

5. How did you arrive at 1.6% salt as the amount to use?

6. What was the weight of the dough ball and what was the size of the pizza you made using that dough ball?
 
7. Since you mentioned Kenji, by any chance was it one of his recipes that you used?

Peter

Thanks Peter for the insightful questions, I will try to answer as best I can.
1: ADY goes in the flour dry
2: Water temp. is tap, which is around 70f here in the Low Country.
3: I did not.
4: I believe I had started out with a lower yeast % way back, but started raising it a few years ago for better rise and flavor. I think I went as low as 1% and then brought it back up probably a year ago.
5: Not sure on the salt. I am sure I read it in a recipe somewhere because I don't know enough about baking to make it up :-)
6: 504 gr doughball for 16" pizza
7: I came across his "Food processor NY style" recipe a couple years ago and used it initially (I think that is where I derived the high oil %), then started modding it based on other sources. I've tried to understand concepts more than memorize instructions but, you know, that certainly doesn't mean I got it right  :-\ I didn't like the way his recipe turned out in a food processor, tbh and I quit with that after maybe two or three pies. By now the recipe I have been using is such a hodge podge I couldn't really claim it to be anyone's recipe.

A note on percentages: The percentages of 1.6% you see so much in my recipe are (forgive me for this) simply nicely rounded numbers based on a 300 gram flour weight. So, for example, with 300 gr. flour, there is 5 grams salt, 5 grams yeast, 6 gr. sugar (at 2.4%). If I had a scale more accurate than 1 gr, I could do the actual 1.6%, etc...but these number were "close enough," as it were.

Per the O.P. I had been pretty darn pleased with what I had been putting out and was just looking to get a fluffier rise in the cornice. A longer RF, higher hydration, and reduced oil, I thought, would have that effect but it didn't seem to, at least in this instance.

Thanks again for your time and consideration.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #13 on: July 27, 2020, 11:38:34 AM »
munselln8,

Originally, after reading your opening post and the later posts, I thought that you used too much yeast. However, since you did not mention anything about pre-hydrating the ADY, it occurred to me that you may have used it dry. We have other members who do likewise and they say that they do not have any problems doing so. Also, I have seen cases, even among professionals, where the ADY was used dry but in some cases they used a lot more than if they had pre-hydrated the ADY.

The practice that manufacturers of ADY recommend is that ADY be pre-hydrated. This is done by using an amount of water that is about five times the weight of the ADY and heating that water to about 105 degrees F and letting the ADY sit in that water for about 10 minutes. It can then be added to the rest of the ingredients, including the rest of the water. The temperature of the water not used to pre-hydrate the ADY should be at a value that will achieve a finished dough temperature of around 70-75 degrees F (if one is using a standard home refrigerator that is less efficient than a commercial cooler). In your case, since you used tap water at around 70 degrees F, I do not think that your dough had an overheating problem. If you would like to use a simple calculation for the temperature of the water to use, see jsaras' post at Reply 5 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7062.msg606298#msg606298

In your case, had you decided to pre-hydrate the ADY as discussed above, then, using Craig's chart at Reply 399 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg511590#msg511590 (click the chart to expand), and assuming that your refrigerator operates at around 38-40 degrees F, and that your desired fermentation duration is about 24 hours, you would only need to use about 1.2% ADY. It would actually be a bit less than that if you let the dough rest for a couple of hours at room temperature before refrigerating. The effect of the dough rest is to give the dough a quick start on fermentation. Also, if you go for 36 hours of fermentation, the amount of ADY would be around 0.67%, and more likely less if you let the dough sit at room temperature for a couple of hours before refrigerating. I might add here that most professionals who specialize in the NY style of pizza do not let the dough rest at room temperature before refrigerating. They go directly to their coolers after forming the dough into dough balls. However, we have a few members who like to let the dough balls rest for a while before refrigerating them. Ideally, what you want is for the dough balls to be a bit tacky but not sticky. Going from sticky to tacky may be achieved by some bench flour provided that everything else about the dough is in proper order, including the hydration percent and the way the dough is formed.

To the above, I might add that you can get around pre-hydrating step by going to IDY. IDY can simply be added dry to the flour and other ingredients. You will, of course, have to use the proper amount of IDY, which will be less than the amount of ADY. You might also be able to go with a somewhat lower protein flour, like a bread flour. That is something that many of our members use in a home setting for the NY style.

Like other members who replied to your posts, I originally thought that you were using too much oil, and especially because you also had a high hydration value (66%). The AT flour you are using has a rated absorption value of about 63%. But when you add 5% oil, that has an additional wetting effect on the dough and can yield a dough that is too wet and maybe harder to handle because of the increased wetness. In your case, the combined percents of water and oil was 71%. What Tom Lehmann and I often recommend when the dough is overly wet or hard to handle because of large hydration and oil quantities is that one try to use a combined percent of water and oil that is equal to the rated absorption value of the flour (63% in this case). If that yields a dough that is too dry, then the amount of water can be increased in future tests, in 2% increments, until the desired texture of the dough is achieved. To the above, I would note that 5% oil is not typical for a NY style dough. More typical is a value of about 1-2%. However, for a more tender crust and cornicione, adding more oil can have a tenderizing effect. But to achieve a more airy crust, it helps to have a relatively high bake temperature. To read more about this, you may want to read these two posts by Tom Lehmann:

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=36133.msg359814;topicseen#msg359814, and

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=61059.msg610279;topicseen#msg610279

You might also want to take a look at another post by Tom, in this case how to handle dough balls when they are placed in the refrigerator and also how to handle them when ready to use, at Reply 2 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=59284.msg594658;topicseen#msg594658

As for the amount of salt, a value of around 1.75-2% is more typical for a NY style dough. The higher amount of salt will impede the performance of the yeast a bit and reduce the gas production slightly, but it will also make the dough a bit stronger.  But these effects are likely to be minor.

I didn't mention sugar before, but about 1-2% sugar is quite common although sugar isn't really necessary for a dough that is to cold ferment for only a day. Once you get to two to three days, a bit of sugar helps keep the yeast fed and may also contribute to final crust coloration.

As for your thickness factor, the 504 grams of dough for a 16" pizza translates to a thickness factor of 0.0884. That is an acceptable, and fairly common, value for a NY style pizza. If you would like a bigger rim and hope that it achieves a less dense cornicione, you can always increase the thickness factor to give you more dough to work with in forming the rim.

I will leave to you to decide how you would like to proceed from here inasmuch as there are several decision points to consider. In my opinion, a good place to start is to identify the objectives and results you want to achieve and then come up with a dough formulation and follow-on dough preparation and management to achieve the desired results for the fermentation period you would like to use. And hope that your oven and bake protocol is compatible with the foregoing.

As you proceed, feel free to come back with any questions you might have.

Peter

Offline munselln8

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #14 on: July 27, 2020, 03:39:31 PM »
Hey  Pete,
All I can say at the moment is WOW! You have really gone out of your way to provide me with tons of info and I really appreciate that! I'm still scratching my head at what exactly went wrong, but your links and info will help me a lot to figure out how to move forward. Much appreciated!
Honestly, I think I must have mis-measured something or made a mistake somewhere along the line. The changes made from my normal process seemed relatively minor (less oil, no dusting flour on the knead). But, man! Trying to open that dough was like eating soup with sieve! Super-stretchy with (And I'm not exaggerating) near 0% elasticity.
All that said, trial, error and discovery is what makes anything worthwhile so...back to the drawing board. I'm gonna enjoy reading through the links you provided and see if I can make sense of everything you mentioned. Thanks again!
Funny thing is, when I worked in the pizzeria all those years ago I would watch Pepe make the dough (The owner, Pepe, made dough on Monday and Thursday IIRC) and he had no concern with things like water temp, exact measurements (Never used a scale not once). Just throwing in cups of this, tablespoons of that, etc... and the dough was always great. We could throw that stuff around, spin it on the back of our hands, toss it from one guy to another guy...the folks in small town Elyria Ohio really thought that was cool. Ahhh the magic of the "Ole' Italian touch". Anyway....onward and upwards!
Happy Pizza all.

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #15 on: July 27, 2020, 03:51:59 PM »
munselln8,

I actually made several edits to my last post throughout the day as different thoughts and ideas crossed my mind that I thought might help you out more. As I reread your posts, several times actually, I felt like a forensics expert who shows up at the scene of a crime or accident and then examines everything to see what happened and how and why. It's actually a lot of fun. I also took note of the suggestions made by other members in this thread.

The trick is creating something that will work and that can be easily and readily reproduced. That is what Pepe did. He didn't have to spend his time changing things all over the place. He also had the benefit of having a commercial mixer and knowing how to produce great dough with it. By contrast, the members on the forum have all kinds of mixers that require a lot of experience and testing to be able to produce doughs of the same quality as commercial mixers. It can be done but it can take a fair amount of work.

Peter

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #16 on: July 27, 2020, 04:08:40 PM »
Funny thing is, when I worked in the pizzeria all those years ago I would watch Pepe make the dough (The owner, Pepe, made dough on Monday and Thursday IIRC) and he had no concern with things like water temp, exact measurements (Never used a scale not once). Just throwing in cups of this, tablespoons of that, etc... and the dough was always great. We could throw that stuff around, spin it on the back of our hands, toss it from one guy to another guy...the folks in small town Elyria Ohio really thought that was cool. Ahhh the magic of the "Ole' Italian touch". Anyway....onward and upwards!

Well he had many years experience so he just knew what to do!  It's us mortals that obsess over grams and milligrams! :D  But honestly I suppose that's the only way to transmit the knowledge over Internet.  It is really more of an art than a science, but the science helps when you're learning the art.

A pity he didn't teach you how to make dough, then you'd have it in your soul too!
Jack

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Offline munselln8

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #17 on: July 27, 2020, 04:37:21 PM »
munselln8,

 I felt like a forensics expert who shows up at the scene of a crime or accident and then examines everything to see what happened and how and why. It's actually a lot of fun.

Pete...You're spot on mate...my oven LOOKED like a "crime scene" last night. At one point (after I fired up the cleaning cycle) my wife came in to the living room and said..."uh...is the oven supposed to be on fire"? I just said..."Don't worry, it's just the remains of my dignity".... Thank god we had those leftover quesadillas!  ;D :'( :-D :-D

Offline typicalsam

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #18 on: July 29, 2020, 09:52:09 AM »
Pete...You're spot on mate...my oven LOOKED like a "crime scene" last night. At one point (after I fired up the cleaning cycle) my wife came in to the living room and said..."uh...is the oven supposed to be on fire"? I just said..."Don't worry, it's just the remains of my dignity".... Thank god we had those leftover quesadillas!  ;D :'( :-D :-D

 :-D :-D :-D glad you can joke about it and that you had a backup meal

after a few accidents i started making 1 extra dough ball just to launch 'naked' as a test run. i got so nervous about putting the pizza in the oven for a while  :-D its a high stakes game when dinner is on the line

Offline naval2006

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #19 on: July 29, 2020, 10:11:50 AM »
Munselln8,

This forum must be one of a kind.  The most experienced members always help and teach us newbies to Peter's extent.  What's happened to you is just part of the game.  The hall of shame of pizza loading is a classic (see thread), and dough that went wrong, no comments.  Now one thing I believe you get through experience is how to salvage dough.  Not very often down the road to learning about pizza making do you throw dough away or get you pie stuck on the peel.  Next time your dough is in jeopardy you'll feel the hidden pizzaiolo pride and you'll try to save the day no matter how.  Enjoy Peter's detailed explanation.  That's the way to learn about pizza making.

Alex

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