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Author Topic: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading  (Read 1335 times)

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Offline munselln8

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2020, 08:32:11 AM »
:-D :-D :-D glad you can joke about it and that you had a backup meal

after a few accidents i started making 1 extra dough ball just to launch 'naked' as a test run. i got so nervous about putting the pizza in the oven for a while  :-D its a high stakes game when dinner is on the line

Trust me, I was not in a joking mood that night hahaha, it took a day or so of distance  :-D

I am making another pizza tomorrow but I'm going to make two. One with my original most recent successful recipe (With all that oil, etc) and one with the modified recipe that failed last week. I am starting to feel pretty sure that I mis-measured something (likely water, but I'll find out, I guess.) I'll be launching that "Trusted" recipe first, for sure...I have no left-overs in the fridge!!!

Offline typicalsam

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2020, 10:28:38 AM »
Good luck! The failures make the successes that but sweeter  :drool:

Offline munselln8

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2020, 10:06:11 PM »
So...two ~500gr. doughballs in the fridge for the next 24 hours. we'll see how they turn out tomorrow. Interesting thing happened in the process. I mixed up the first doughball and let it run in the mixer until it balled and clung to the hook (as usual). I pulled it out and dusted the bench, then started to knead it. I kneaded it for about 2 mintues then thought..."I'll just let it "Rest" while I start the other doughball". So, I let it sit on the bench for probably 5 or 8 minutes or so while I started mixing up the other doughball (the one with less oil and destined for a "no dusting" kneading session). When I came back to finish kneading the first ball...it was as though it had been kneading itself while I was working on the other ball. Is there something to this "Resting" the dough that I have overlooked? Seriously, I always thought that resting was "in lieu" of kneading, not as a necessary part of kneading. Anyone?? Bueller? :-) Anyway, wish me luck! Also, The "low oil" ball was decidedly "stickier" than the high oil ball which at first seemed strange after reading Pete's comments on oil adding to the hydration level. After some brief thought though...it seems reasonable that oil would make it less sticky being that it is oil (a lubricant). so, plus 1 to extra oil for making it easier to work with but all judgments reserved until tomorrow when I try to open these two balls up. I'll take some comparative picks tomorrow.

Offline Yael

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2020, 02:36:16 AM »
When your dough is resting, the flour is absorbing the water making it more 'consistent' if you will. 5 to 8 min is quite short, 15-30 min is more standard.
When I hand-make my dough, I just mix everything till it's correctly mixed (no clumps), then I let it rest 15-30 min, then fold, then rest again, then fold again. I'm not even sure there's a difference with a basic dough which is mixed with a machine...
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Offline munselln8

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #24 on: July 31, 2020, 10:36:04 PM »
Just finished eating way too much pizza. I pulled both dough 1.5 hrs. prior to opening them ( I will attach photos once I upload them). Oven was preheated to 500f for two hours prior (My oven will only reach 500f despite my greatest efforts). I opened and launched my original recipe first (With the 5% oil). It was it's normal, wonderful working dough. I opened it, slapped it a couple times and easily managed two or three throws, making a nice round pie ~ 16", dressed it and launched nicely. 7 minute bake (moved it to the top stone after 4 minutes, rotated it 90 at 6 minutes and pulled.)
2nd pie (With the reduced oil and zero bench flour during the kneading process). The RF resulted in about the same rise on both dough. Turned this one onto the bench and noticed immediately the lack of elasticity. Was able to turn and slap but tossing was a no go (i.e. not as fun or easy or nice to work with.)
results: My normal recipe came out as usual. It was the first done and so I ate some while the other was in the oven. Very good. Tasty, with a nice chew. The second (lower oil and no dusting) was thinner (less oven spring) and the cornicione was thinner (which was a surprise - I had expected greater rise). The most noticeable difference was in the crispy nature of the low oil dough. To my surprise I LOVED the thinner / crispier nature of the crust on this. In the end, though I didn't like the workability of the low oil dough, I would make make it again over my old dough for the crsipy nature of the crust. Maybe I will try adding more salt to get the workability back up...?

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2020, 10:12:41 AM »
munselln8,

Can you tell us what the dough formulations were in terms of ingredients and amounts and the final dough ball weights, and also how you made and managed the doughs? The answers might provide a clue as to why the two dough balls performed differently in terms of elasticity and extensibility.

Peter

Offline munselln8

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2020, 01:05:39 PM »
1st pie (My normal recipe):
Dough: 100% (AT B&B)
Water: 66%
Sugar: 2.4%
Salt: 1.6%
ADY: 1.6%
EVOO: 5%

2nd pie (With reduced oil and no bench flour when kneading).
Flour: 100% (AT B&B)
Water: 66%
Sugar: 2.4%
Salt: 1.6%
ADY: 1.6%
EVOO: 1.6%

Both dough balls were ~500 grams (#1 was 509 #2 was 503)

The only difference in ingredients is the lower oil in the less elastic dough. This dough just doesn't spring back hardly at all. Just plastic flow. takes 30 seconds to spread it to 16" but it is usually not circular, but has to be "rearranged on the peel to get a circle (which yields inconsistent crust thickness).

The only difference in mgmt. of the dough is that the low oil dough gets no bench flour (dustings) while being kneaded. Both dough balls are placed directly in the fridge for 24 hrs. once balled. Removed 1.5 hrs. prior to opening.
This morning I opened up my "Pizza bible" and reread some stuff that seemed pertinent. 1) oil adds chewiness, flavor and browning (according to Tony). - this jives with what I ate last night. 2) Adding salt will make a dough more elastic (Tony states that they often triple the salt for "competition throwing dough".

That got me looking at my water supply: Here in Charleston we have a pretty soft water with a pH of 8.3 and 0 ppm salts.
what do you think about me upping my salt to increase elasticity?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2020, 01:16:07 PM »
munselln8,

I don't see any harm in increasing the amount of salt, but you may want to get to around 2% or a bit more to notice a difference.

Do you plan at some point to try some of the ideas discussed at Reply 13 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=64334.msg633693#msg633693 ?

Peter

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2020, 08:42:20 PM »

That got me looking at my water supply: Here in Charleston we have a pretty soft water with a pH of 8.3 and 0 ppm salts.
what do you think about me upping my salt to increase elasticity?

A pH level of 8.3 indicates that your water is very much in the alkaline range; definitely not soft. I don't know how much of a difference that might be making in your dough, but I would try diluting the water you use in your dough with one-half distilled water to see if that has any effect.
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Offline Yael

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2020, 10:07:49 PM »
A pH level of 8.3 indicates that your water is very much in the alkaline range; definitely not soft. I don't know how much of a difference that might be making in your dough, but I would try diluting the water you use in your dough with one-half distilled water to see if that has any effect.

Alkaline water is soft water, isn't it?  ???
Under 7 it's acidic, so I wouldn't call it soft...
Are softness and hardness related to pH at all? Can a hard water (with a lot of mineral salts) be either acidic or alkaline?
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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #30 on: August 01, 2020, 10:23:49 PM »
Alkaline water is soft water, isn't it?  ???
Under 7 it's acidic, so I wouldn't call it soft...
Are softness and hardness related to pH at all? Can a hard water (with a lot of mineral salts) be either acidic or alkaline?
Softness and hardness are definitely related to pH level. Here's a good article on the subject: https://opentextbc.ca/ingredients/chapter/water-hardness-and-ph/
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Offline Fiorot

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #31 on: August 01, 2020, 10:55:23 PM »
For me to keep it simple a 3-4 day ferment will lead to a more extensive opening with less oven rise resulting in a thinner pie with a more dense rim.  No way will a same day dough act that way.   I will likely have much more rise with a airy rim and possible bubbles

Offline Yael

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #32 on: August 02, 2020, 02:47:10 AM »
Softness and hardness are definitely related to pH level. Here's a good article on the subject: https://opentextbc.ca/ingredients/chapter/water-hardness-and-ph/

I opened another thread https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=64593.new#new so we're not off-topic here  :D
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Offline munselln8

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Re: Thoughts on my NY style, mainly hydration and kneading
« Reply #33 on: Yesterday at 08:32:36 AM »
munselln8,

I don't see any harm in increasing the amount of salt, but you may want to get to around 2% or a bit more to notice a difference.

Do you plan at some point to try some of the ideas discussed at Reply 13 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=64334.msg633693#msg633693 ?

Peter
Hey Pete!,
Yes, most of what I have been doing comes out of that post...I just got sidetracked abit in the "rabbit hole" of water quality. I had initially intended to use a 48hr. ferment on these last two but got busy and didn't get it done in time so alas, the 24 hr.  The higher salt concept came, partially out of that thread as well as keeping the lower oil.
I believe I will also be dropping water % to 63% based on the information in that thread.I will keep y'all posted. I have a lot of travel coming up so it might slow down progress.

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