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Offline Jay De Marco

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Cold fermentation 3 days
« on: July 24, 2020, 06:41:54 AM »
I carried out a 3 day fermentation in fridge and 4 hours at room temp. I let bulk ferment for 60 hours then I balled up and put back in fridge For another 8 hours and then in afternoon I left out of fridge for 4 hours. I found the dough balls were very flat and didn’t rise well in pizza oven and my crust wasn’t very good. Any ideas where I went wrong and any recommendations for cold fermentation’s yeast percentage.

00 flour 5 stag
70 % hydration
0.15  % IDY
3 % salt

60 hours bulk ferment in fridge (2 degrees)
8 hours ball ferment in fridge ( 2 degrees)
4 hours ball ferment room temp (18- 20 degrees)

Total ferment 72 hours.

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Cold fermentation 3 days
« Reply #1 on: July 24, 2020, 10:03:25 AM »
I'd either use more yeast or start off with a room temperature ferment and then let it slow down in fridge. Your fridge temps are cold so yeast has probably put on its winter coat and hibernating.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Cold fermentation 3 days
« Reply #2 on: July 24, 2020, 12:08:10 PM »
Jay De Marco,

It is also possible that your hydration value is too high for the flour you are using. Since there are several 5 Stagioni 00 flours, can you post a photo of what the bag looks like, including any nutrition information on the bag?

Also, 3% salt is perhaps on the high side even though that amount is common for the Neapolitan style, but typically for doughs fermented at room temperature or some other controlled temperature. High salt levels (typically above 1.5%) can impede the performance of the yeast (see the section Osmotic Pressure at http://www.theartisan.net/dough_development.htm).

As for the amount of yeast (IDY) you used, it might have been on the low side for a dough that is to cold ferment at around 2 degrees C for close to three days. Next time, you might be guided by Craig's chart at Reply 188 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,26831.msg349349.html#msg349349 (click to enlarge).

Please let us know how your next dough batch turns out.

Peter

Offline Jay De Marco

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Re: Cold fermentation 3 days
« Reply #3 on: July 24, 2020, 07:39:42 PM »
Ok thanks I will take all those tips on board and let you know of my next pizza. The bag of 5 stag pizza Napoletana which I had was the 10 kg bag which is 13% protein. I noticed on the website the 1kg of 5 stag is actually lower at 11 %? Not sure why they would do that of the same flour in different sizes.

Offline Yael

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Re: Cold fermentation 3 days
« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2020, 08:17:59 PM »
Jay De Marco,

I also think it's just a matter of yeast amount and/or RT and/or duration at RT.

Basically, you can:
- keep this RTF duration (4H after CF) at this RT (18-20°C) but add more yeast (in your case, maybe double);
- keep this yeast amount and this duration but increase the room temperature (25+°C);
- keep this RT and yeast amount but increase the duration at RT (for example, 6 to 9H instead of 4H).

The easiest for your right now must be the 1st one; the 2nd one can be done if you can find a place that is hotter; and the last one depends on your flour strength (after 3 days CF dough starts to weaken).
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Cold fermentation 3 days
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2020, 08:33:43 PM »
Jay De Marco,

I am sure that the two bag sizes are not for the same flour. The photos of the two flours you showed are for two different flours. More specifically, if you go to the Stagioni website at http://www.le5stagioni.it/, and then click on ENG (English), you will be taken to a page that shows all of the flours, at http://www.le5stagioni.it/en/Prodotti. I believe that the two flours you showed are the Pizza Napoletana Rossa/Red and Pizza Napoletana. The descriptions of the two flours match what you showed in your photos. Unfortunately, when I tried to click on the DATASHEET links to hopefully get more information on the two flours, they did not work for me.

You will also note from your photos that the high protein 00 flour (the top photo) has a minimum absorption value of 57% and the medium protein 00 flour (the bottom photo) has a minimum absorption value of 55%. Both of those values are far below what you used, that is, 70%. I don't mean to say that it is impossible to use 70% but you might want to go below that value in search of the best number for your purposes. For example, you might try using 60%, and go from there.

Peter

EDIT: After further poking around the Stagioni website, I found that the DATASHEETS will work for the Italian version. And what is shown there looks to be the same as you posted.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Cold fermentation 3 days
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2020, 10:33:26 PM »
I think you're experiencing these difficulties because your bulk fermentation is very long and your hydration is quite high for a Neapolitan pizza dough and flour. Your yeast and salt levels are ok.

1) You don't need more than 24 hours bulk. If you go beyond 24 hours, it is advisable to give your dough a set of stretch folds to release the gas and to give the yeast access to fresh nutrients. After 24 hours, you can ball up and let the rest of the fermentation take another 22 hours in the fridge and 2 hours at room temp to warm up prior to baking. There is really no need to go past 48 hours total. The flavor development at 48 hours is excellent, and you still have enough residual sugars in your dough to make a nice color and provide a good oven spring. If you go too long, your dough gains some barely noticeable sour flavors at the expense of dough strength reduction and poor color on the crust.

2) You can probably get away with 70% hydration but you have to be comfortable with high hydration dough and you need to build more strength in your dough during the bulk process through either a)mixing in a spiral mixer using the double hydration method or b)making multiple sets of stretch folds during the bulk fermentation stage. Unless you're very comfortable with 70% hydrated dough, I'd recommend you take it down to 65% and see if this makes it better for you.
« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 01:27:30 AM by DoouBall »
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline Jay De Marco

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Re: Cold fermentation 3 days
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2020, 06:52:53 AM »
Thanks for all your tips, had seemed to work a lot better this time round, used a little bit too much flour when stretching a couple of them out but other then that worked pretty well.


00 flour 5 stag Napoletana
65% hydration
3% salt
0.3% IDY
24 hour (2 degree C fridge ) bulk ferment
20 hour (2 degree C fridge ) ball ferment
5 hour (20 - 22 degree C room temp) ball ferment
« Last Edit: August 01, 2020, 11:31:04 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Cold fermentation 3 days
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2020, 11:42:13 AM »
Looking good! Nice crust color on your pizza. How do you like the taste of this flour?
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline HansB

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Re: Cold fermentation 3 days
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2020, 12:09:36 PM »
I have found that the taste of 5 Stagioni and Caputo Pizzaria to be indistinguishable.
Hans

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Offline Jay De Marco

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Re: Cold fermentation 3 days
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2020, 06:25:29 PM »
I found the taste of this flour pretty nice, a local pizzeria recommended it to me, I usually used the caputo chef flour which is a small 1kg packet, but yeah I can’t notice a massive difference to be honest.

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