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Offline Pod4477

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So as you guys know, I've been trying to recreate the Pizzeria Regina dough (mainly the crumb) for a while, and have only had one other crumb that was as good.  That other crumb was from Italy.  They both had the exact flavor, so that is why I'm wondering if PR does use some sort of preferment, and even if they don't, I think I should start using one. 

I think it helped taking a break from pizza making.  I didn't notice how strong PR's crumb smell and taste are.  I got some PR slices tonight and one of the slices was was bursting with smell and flavor in the crumb, so I trapped some of the crumb inside of a sandwich bag and left it for a few hours.  I came back to the bag and opened it, to find the smell of almost cream cheese or something along those lines.  Now I wonder if I got some cheese trapped in the bag, or if it's just the fermented crumb smell being concentrated.  Maybe this is why I always mixed up the smell of cheese for the smell of the crumb a year ago? The two remind me of each other somehow.  The crumb has the smell and taste of a very good sourdough bread, but with no sourness.  So that is why I wonder if a fake sourdough is being added.  The crumb has an extremely pronounced smell and taste, that is almost buttery, and it's making me wonder what is going on here.  I'm going to see how my 17 day dough compares today, and to see if I can get the same smell and taste.  I think I will only have to go by the smell though, to see if mine is close.

I forget a lot about using preferments, and curious wha the biggest difference between a 17 day dough and using a preferment is.  Does a preferment allow for longer, more pronounced flavors, and can you keep a preferment forever?  I've wondered if PR is using a dry sourdough starter or something commercial, but it's encouraging to know that the Italian pizza had the same taste from assumed non-mass produced means.

From what I've been told, fermenting a dough for almost 20 days is similar to a biga already, so I wonder what the difference would be if I used a biga in the dough.  I'm assuming that most Italian shops don't cold ferment their dough, so they use the biga mixed into the dough for the room temp fermentation.  I guess my biggest questions are:
1.  How does a preferment compare to that of a 15 day cold fermented dough
2.  Is it advantageous to use a preferment along with a 7 day cold ferment as PR claims to do?
3.  What would be the closest preferment to the one used by many Italian shops, which I remember to usually be a biga?
4.  How long should a preferment age for, before being used?
Thanks guys! Any help is much appreciated and I'm not sure why I didn't do more biga work over the winter.

« Last Edit: July 06, 2020, 01:19:41 AM by Pod4477 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Pod4477,

For background purposes, you may want to read these two articles that I often cite on the subject of preferments:

http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm, and 

http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm

Even before reading the above articles, you might want to set the stage by reading the PREFERMENT entry in the forum's Pizza Glossary, and also the related BIGA and POOLISH entries, starting with the PREFERMENT entry at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_p

The above articles that I cited are with respect to bread baking. However, the basic principles also apply to pizza making, but often with some modifications. In the bread making world, preferments are used not only to impart flavor and texture characteristics to the baked breads but also to speed up the dough making process. The preferments can be same-day preferments, or even overnight. In some bakeries, there is a temperature controlled room or section of the bakery that allows for overnight management and control of preferments.

The experiments you conducted with doughs with long lives, even weeks, were no doubt useful for you to experience their flavor contributions to the finished pizzas. But I do not believe that PR is using preferments as part of its dough making procedure. I say this because commissaries try to keep things as simple as possible. Previously, PR said that their dough was around seven days old, or something to that effect. That can be done with a straight dough, as I learned when I tried to clone Papa John's dough. Their dough can last from about 3 to 8 days. In the first three days, the dough is not quite ready, but it will be once delivered to its stores (on a twice-a-week basis) and held in cold storage (but below freezing) until ready to be used. I have studied other commissary methods used by other pizza companies and I am not aware of any commissary that uses preferments. You may see it in an individual pizzeria from time to time but the entire process is controlled at the store level, at least from what I recall.

You might recall that we speculated that maybe PR was using a special kind of yeast or maybe even a sourdough product sold in dry form. Those should be workable in a commissary setting. You might remember our talking about a yeast place in Woburn, MA, which is also where PR has its commissary. I don't recall offhand what kinds of yeasts the place in Woburn sells but it might be worth looking into to see if they sell a sourdough product in dry form with strong flavor components. If they don't have such a product, maybe they can refer you to a place that does sell it. Tom Lehmann discusses such a product at Reply 4 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=45246.msg453039;topicseen#msg453039

Once you have had a chance to digest the above, feel free to come back with any follow-up questions you might have.

Peter

Offline jsaras

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So as you guys know, I've been trying to recreate the Pizzeria Regina dough (mainly the crumb) for a while, and have only had one other crumb that was as good.  That other crumb was from Italy.  They both had the exact flavor, so that is why I'm wondering if PR does use some sort of preferment, and even if they don't, I think I should start using one. 

I think it helped taking a break from pizza making.  I didn't notice how strong PR's crumb smell and taste are.  I got some PR slices tonight and one of the slices was was bursting with smell and flavor in the crumb, so I trapped some of the crumb inside of a sandwich bag and left it for a few hours.  I came back to the bag and opened it, to find the smell of almost cream cheese or something along those lines.  Now I wonder if I got some cheese trapped in the bag, or if it's just the fermented crumb smell being concentrated.  Maybe this is why I always mixed up the smell of cheese for the smell of the crumb a year ago? The two remind me of each other somehow.  The crumb has the smell and taste of a very good sourdough bread, but with no sourness.  So that is why I wonder if a fake sourdough is being added.  The crumb has an extremely pronounced smell and taste, that is almost buttery, and it's making me wonder what is going on here.  I'm going to see how my 17 day dough compares today, and to see if I can get the same smell and taste.  I think I will only have to go by the smell though, to see if mine is close.

I forget a lot about using preferments, and curious wha the biggest difference between a 17 day dough and using a preferment is.  Does a preferment allow for longer, more pronounced flavors, and can you keep a preferment forever?  I've wondered if PR is using a dry sourdough starter or something commercial, but it's encouraging to know that the Italian pizza had the same taste from assumed non-mass produced means.

From what I've been told, fermenting a dough for almost 20 days is similar to a biga already, so I wonder what the difference would be if I used a biga in the dough.  I'm assuming that most Italian shops don't cold ferment their dough, so they use the biga mixed into the dough for the room temp fermentation.  I guess my biggest questions are:
1.  How does a preferment compare to that of a 15 day cold fermented dough
2.  Is it advantageous to use a preferment along with a 7 day cold ferment as PR claims to do?
3.  What would be the closest preferment to the one used by many Italian shops, which I remember to usually be a biga?
4.  How long should a preferment age for, before being used?
Thanks guys! Any help is much appreciated and I'm not sure why I didn't do more biga work over the winter.

I remember years ago that member November suggested using 5.6% Tofutti Better Than Cream Cheese as a sourdough substitute and it added 1% fat to the dough.  I've never tried it, but it sounds intriguing and it may get you to where you want to go.
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Offline Pod4477

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Thank you both!  I'm going to do my reading of what you posted Pete and very interesting about the better than cream cheese.  I did realize some things today and they are very good news.

1.  I think the buttery smell might have been from bits of cheese that was stuck to the crumb...sry about that. 
2.  I smelled the Great Lakes Whole Milk Mozzarella bag and it did smell like the inside of the PR slice box, so I think the fat of the cheese is what I'm smelling in the box, mixed with fermentation smell.
3.  And now for the best news of all...well for me at least.  My 17 day 60% effective hydration dough did in fact have the same smell as PR crumb, but just not quite as strong.

So this leads me to believe I may need more yeast, or more time to the fermentation.  Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated as I've been trying to think of all the ways to kick up the fermentation flavor.  Now I want to clarify that I did not taste both side by side, but I smelled both side by side, and tasted them one day apart.  Because the PR crumb went a bit rancid in a day, I didn't want to take any chances.  But from the smell and day apart tasting, I know that mine has the same smell and taste, just that mine is maybe half as pronounced as PR. 

I should add that neither have much of a sour taste like that from a sourdough starter, so I agree Pete, that no preferment is used at PR commissary.  Maybe they are using an inactive sourdough or something to give it what I'll call 100% flavor to my 50% flavor.  Somehow they are able to get 100% flavor in 3-7 days. 

So what do you guys think would be the best way to get more fermentation flavor by about 50%?  Preferably I wouldn't need to wait 17 days, so I'm thinking more yeast or a high concentration of a biga might be the best solutions.  Maybe also a stronger yeast may work, but I assume just more yeast may do the trick.  Normally I don't like a lot of yeast as I believe what I'm tasting is the actual (what I call) unfed yeast before they do their work, but 3-7 (and definitely 17) days seems to take away all taste of the unfed yeast.

As a side note, I am amazed at how yeasty some doughs can be, and I think it really has to do with under-fermented dough, as a long fermentation takes away any yeast taste 100% of the time.

Offline Pete-zza

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Pod4477,

In my experience, the best crust flavors I was able to produce came from using a natural starter (sourdough). I was also able to achieve good crust flavors using commercially leavened preferments, but the flavors were not as good as using a sourdough. Next in line were the long cold fermented doughs. I am talking about a week or more and up to almost three weeks of cold fermentation. The crusts made from such doughs had flavors that reminded me of crusts that were based on sourdough or commercially leavened preferments. They were also naturally sweet even though I did not add any sugars to the doughs. I also tried using a combination of a sourdough starter and commercial yeast. However, I found that the commercial yeast overtook the sourdough, to the point where I lost the kinds of flavors that were produced by using only the sourdough. Also, the texture of the finished crust did not appeal to me.

I do not think that using more yeast is necessarily the solution to the problem you have described. There have been cases in my experience where more yeast added a flavor component to the finished crusts but the crusts were for cracker style pizzas where the dough balls were rolled out very thin (with a thickness factor of about 0.06), by hand or by machine, and possibly docked and pre-baked. So, it didn't matter that the dough balls were on the gassy side because of the use of more yeast because the gases would be pressed out of the skins.

If you increase the amount of yeast, I think you will experience greater fermentation and that may make the skins harder to handle, and especially so if you plan to cold ferment for long periods of time. For example, I don't think you will be able to make it out to seven days. However, I do not want to completely discourage you from trying more yeast. You will see, for example, that I used 0.60% IDY for a dough that made it out to over twelve days of cold fermentation. But to do that, I had to use water at around 44 degrees F and I also added the yeast toward the end of the dough making process. You can see the details at Reply 29 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg36081#msg36081

As another example of a way of achieving a long dough life is to use ADY, but in dry form, and water at a temperature of around 42 degrees F. In my case, I used the ADY directly out of the freezer. That experiment is discussed at Reply 722 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg65487#msg65487

The above examples are intended for a home application that you might consider and not to suggest that PR does anything like what is described in the above posts in its commissary setting. But maybe the combination of more yeast and very low temperatures might yield more flavor over the fermentation window normally used.

You also mentioned the possibility of using a biga. A biga is a preferment and it can be tricky to use because it is usually a low hydration dough (at least compared with a poolish) and can be quite stiff and hard to incorporate into the final dough. As I mentioned before, I have not read about any commissary that uses preferments.

For now, I am inclined to stick with the "special natural yeast" that PR still talks about at its website, namely:

Our secret century old recipe uses a special natural yeast and is aged to perfection.

No doubt, there is a certain amount of fluff in the above statement, but that is all we have to go with at this time. Notably, the above statement does not rule out an inactive sourdough flavor product in dry form that can simply be added to the dough. Or maybe the special natural yeast is a type of yeast used by beer brewers. For a basic article, see:

http://allaboutbeer.com/learn/beer/yeast/

Peter


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Offline Pod4477

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Thank you so much! This really answered perfectly the questions Iíve been wondering about. I did note how PR doughs seems very gassy, especially from what Iíve seen from Braintree location. I wonder if that is a sign of the yeast amounts being on the high side. Iím going to try to increase yeast and use ADY, along with cold water. I did find that adding the yeast towards the end, keeping the water cold, and using a mini fridge that is never opened, really helped to improve the dough. With the yeast, adding it towards the end in a food processor, should I pulse after adding the yeast or just work it in by hand kneeding? When I did a test with hand kneeding, the yeast didnít get fully incorporated, and there were yeast blotches throughout the dough.

I do think they are using the special yeast and maybe a dry inactive sourdough, but Iím very happy that my smell and taste were basically the same, just not as prevalent. I have a feeling that two years ago on New Years Day, things were just right for more intense fermentation flavor. Iíll get back to that intensity.

Offline Pete-zza

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Thank you so much! This really answered perfectly the questions Iíve been wondering about. I did note how PR doughs seems very gassy, especially from what Iíve seen from Braintree location. I wonder if that is a sign of the yeast amounts being on the high side. Iím going to try to increase yeast and use ADY, along with cold water. I did find that adding the yeast towards the end, keeping the water cold, and using a mini fridge that is never opened, really helped to improve the dough. With the yeast, adding it towards the end in a food processor, should I pulse after adding the yeast or just work it in by hand kneeding? When I did a test with hand kneeding, the yeast didnít get fully incorporated, and there were yeast blotches throughout the dough.

I do think they are using the special yeast and maybe a dry inactive sourdough, but Iím very happy that my smell and taste were basically the same, just not as prevalent. I have a feeling that two years ago on New Years Day, things were just right for more intense fermentation flavor. Iíll get back to that intensity.
Pod4477,

With respect to the use of your food processor, I would use extra cold water and use the pulse feature to work in the yeast, so as not to overheat the dough.

I also want you to know that after my last post, I decided to do some more research to see if I could find a yeast that is a "special natural yeast". Since PR at the original (first) location was founded in 1926, and since the folks at PR have said that the recipe they use is around 100 years old, that would mean that the recipe must have been based on using either sourdough or fresh yeast. Fresh yeast was created in 1868 by a man by the name of Charles Fleischmann. And, as I understand it, the fresh yeast he created is essentially the same yeast sold today by Fleischmann's but using more modern production methods. By contrast, of the dry forms, ADY was created around World War II and IDY was created in the 1970s. I personally do not see anything special about any of those forms of yeast.

The above simplistic analysis led me to do a fair amount of searching to see if I could find a yeast that fits all of the words of "special", "natural" and "yeast". Those words are very general and can mean a lot of things. Even "yeast" can mean a few things. It can be live yeast and even dead yeast, which is a form of yeast often used by producers of frozen dough. There is even a form of yeast called "cream yeast". That is a form of yeast that resembles cream and that is usually delivered to major bakeries by railroad car and transferred to special holding tanks in the bakeries, and used promptly to prevent spoilage. With about 26 store locations, I do not think that PR makes enough dough balls in its commissary to warrant using cream yeast. The reason why the really big bakeries use cream yeast is because it is maybe the cheapest form of yeast (for further elaboration, see Tom Lehmann's post at Reply 18 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=52007.msg524225;topicseen#msg524225). But, setting all of this aside, at least one might arguably say that such a yeast is special, natural and a form of yeast.

Somehow, my searching fortuitously--and gratefully--led me to this website:

https://www.lallemandbaking.com/en/global/

For your information, Lallemand is a well known producer of yeast and other products. And when I clicked on BAKERS YEAST, I found sections called SOURDOUGH and TASTE & AROMA, at:

https://www.lallemandbaking.com/en/global/

Under the above links, you will see products called Florapan. The Florapan Starter Cultures are discussed at:

https://www.lallemandbaking.com/en/global/brands/florapan-starter-cultures/,

and the Florapan Aromatic Yeasts are discussed at:

https://www.lallemandbaking.com/en/global/brands/florapan-aromatic-yeasts/

And, interestingly, both of the above products can be used together.  And if you read the materials at the above links, I think you will agree that the products described are "special" (they are based on certain yeast strains selected only for these products), "natural" (the list of benefits mentions the term "natural"), and the products are certainly "yeast" products. And I see no reason why the above products cannot be used in a commissary setting.

I have no idea how long the above products have been produced by Lallemand or whether they can be used to make pizza dough, including in a commissary setting, or even where one can purchase the Lallemand products in the package sizes shown at the Lallemand website. At least the bags of the products look to be small, not huge sacks. To get further information, there is a CONTACT US button at the bottom of the pages. It might be worth using the contact feature to get answers to the above questions.

Finally, I should mention that yesterday I contacted PR from its website and I asked about the special natural yeast, using as a pretense that I have a friend in MA who is allergic to all kinds of foods and he has asked me what is the nature of that form of yeast, given that he would like to take his kids to a PR location. I tried something similar a while back but never got a response. So, I may not hear back from them this time either.

Peter

Offline Pod4477

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Pod4477,

With respect to the use of your food processor, I would use extra cold water and use the pulse feature to work in the yeast, so as not to overheat the dough.

I also want you to know that after my last post, I decided to do some more research to see if I could find a yeast that is a "special natural yeast". Since PR at the original (first) location was founded in 1926, and since the folks at PR have said that the recipe they use is around 100 years old, that would mean that the recipe must have been based on using either sourdough or fresh yeast. Fresh yeast was created in 1868 by a man by the name of Charles Fleischmann. And, as I understand it, the fresh yeast he created is essentially the same yeast sold today by Fleischmann's but using more modern production methods. By contrast, of the dry forms, ADY was created around World War II and IDY was created in the 1970s. I personally do not see anything special about any of those forms of yeast.

The above simplistic analysis led me to do a fair amount of searching to see if I could find a yeast that fits all of the words of "special", "natural" and "yeast". Those words are very general and can mean a lot of things. Even "yeast" can mean a few things. It can be live yeast and even dead yeast, which is a form of yeast often used by producers of frozen dough. There is even a form of yeast called "cream yeast". That is a form of yeast that resembles cream and that is usually delivered to major bakeries by railroad car and transferred to special holding tanks in the bakeries, and used promptly to prevent spoilage. With about 26 store locations, I do not think that PR makes enough dough balls in its commissary to warrant using cream yeast. The reason why the really big bakeries use cream yeast is because it is maybe the cheapest form of yeast (for further elaboration, see Tom Lehmann's post at Reply 18 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=52007.msg524225;topicseen#msg524225). But, setting all of this aside, at least one might arguably say that such a yeast is special, natural and a form of yeast.

Somehow, my searching fortuitously--and gratefully--led me to this website:

https://www.lallemandbaking.com/en/global/

For your information, Lallemand is a well known producer of yeast and other products. And when I clicked on BAKERS YEAST, I found sections called SOURDOUGH and TASTE & AROMA, at:

https://www.lallemandbaking.com/en/global/

Under the above links, you will see products called Florapan. The Florapan Starter Cultures are discussed at:

https://www.lallemandbaking.com/en/global/brands/florapan-starter-cultures/,

and the Florapan Aromatic Yeasts are discussed at:

https://www.lallemandbaking.com/en/global/brands/florapan-aromatic-yeasts/

And, interestingly, both of the above products can be used together.  And if you read the materials at the above links, I think you will agree that the products described are "special" (they are based on certain yeast strains selected only for these products), "natural" (the list of benefits mentions the term "natural"), and the products are certainly "yeast" products. And I see no reason why the above products cannot be used in a commissary setting.

I have no idea how long the above products have been produced by Lallemand or whether they can be used to make pizza dough, including in a commissary setting, or even where one can purchase the Lallemand products in the package sizes shown at the Lallemand website. At least the bags of the products look to be small, not huge sacks. To get further information, there is a CONTACT US button at the bottom of the pages. It might be worth using the contact feature to get answers to the above questions.

Finally, I should mention that yesterday I contacted PR from its website and I asked about the special natural yeast, using as a pretense that I have a friend in MA who is allergic to all kinds of foods and he has asked me what is the nature of that form of yeast, given that he would like to take his kids to a PR location. I tried something similar a while back but never got a response. So, I may not hear back from them this time either.

Peter

Thank you.  I definitely try to get the water as cold as possible, but I may have to add some ice in the future. 

Wow this is amazing work and I really think they are using something like this in the commissaries.  Thank you so much.  I'm going to contact them and see if I can buy one of each.  I see the aromatic yeast being perfectly what they would use, because what I taste isn't really sour at all, but just aromatic.  It tastes like the fermentation from my IDY, but on steroids.  That's probably the best way to describe it. 

Haha I like that idea of contacting PR again.  They've been awesome in the past, with regards to answering questions about the flour.  Honestly, I can't believe we probably cracked the PR code and I would say that they must be using something along the lines of a special yeast like the ones you've found.  Either that or a brewers yeast, but if I can get my fermentation flavor a bit stronger, I think it will be exactly the same.

Offline Pete-zza

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Wow this is amazing work and I really think they are using something like this in the commissaries.  Thank you so much.  I'm going to contact them and see if I can buy one of each.  I see the aromatic yeast being perfectly what they would use, because what I taste isn't really sour at all, but just aromatic.  It tastes like the fermentation from my IDY, but on steroids.  That's probably the best way to describe it. 
Pod4477,

I was hoping to find ingredients statements for the Lallemand products I mentioned. But I did not see them on the Lallemand website. But with some further searching, I found these articles:

https://www.newhope.com/specialty/lallemand-launches-natural-aromatic-yeast,

https://www.perishablenews.com/bakery/lallemand-baking-solutions-launches-new-aromatic-yeasts/, and

https://www.bakeryandsnacks.com/Article/2014/09/18/Lallemand-aromatic-yeasts

FYI, according to a small note I found at the bottom of the website page, Lallemand is a privately held Canadian company, founded at the end of the 19th century, specializing in the development, production, and marketing of yeasts and bacteria. You can see where they have facilities at:

https://www.lallemandbaking.com/en/global/who-we-are/r-d/

The Lallemand website is actually a treasure trove of information about baking and specialty ingredients like I mentioned in my last post. Today, after poking around the website, I also saw another product that can be used as a flavor enhancer, but along the sourdough line. See, for example:

https://www.lallemandbaking.com/en/global/brands/lallevain/

If you hover your cursor over the categories set forth under LALLEMAND BAKING, you will see all kinds of information that looks very useful. As an example, I searched the website for pizza and found this:

https://www.lallemandbaking.com/en/global/7556/lallemand-baking-na-sales-team-gets-training-on-novel-flavor-ingredients/

I think I will continue to poke around the website to see if we missed anything. If I do find something that I think you might want to see, I will let you know.

In the meantime, I did find a domestic telephone number, in Memphis, that might help in case you want to talk to someone. I don't know if it will serve your purpose but it is given at:

https://www.lallemandbaking.com/en/global/directory/global-contacts/

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Pod4477,

After my last post, I came across this thread, which I started in 2014 but forgot over the years, and where Norma played around with the Florapan aromatic yeasts:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=32478.msg320983#msg320983

What I found on the Lallemand aromatic yeasts that prompted the above thread was a simple description at the Lallemand website. The link to that website no longer works but I found the original material archived at the Wayback Machine at:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140812071213/https://www.lallemandbaking.com/our-products/bakery_cultures/aromatic-yeasts/

Peter

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Offline Pod4477

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Re: Trying to nail down taste and smell of PR's possible preferment dough
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2020, 11:34:17 AM »
Pod4477,

After my last post, I came across this thread, which I started in 2014 but forgot over the years, and where Norma played around with the Florapan aromatic yeasts:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=32478.msg320983#msg320983

What I found on the Lallemand aromatic yeasts that prompted the above thread was a simple description at the Lallemand website. The link to that website no longer works but I found the original material archived at the Wayback Machine at:

https://web.archive.org/web/20140812071213/https://www.lallemandbaking.com/our-products/bakery_cultures/aromatic-yeasts/

Peter

I'm sorry! I totally forgot about this thread.  Thank you for the links.  They're fascinating and very interesting how norma messed around with them.  The wayback machine link was clutch, with wine and beer strains; that's new to me.  So I have a feeling they might be using a special yeast like that.  I found from my tests that 2% ADY matched the fermentation flavor of PR, but perhaps less aromatic yeast would need to be used to replicate the same flavor.  Now I'm wondering why the VPN forbids a biga if the use of a biga can add so much flavor. I guess using an aromatic yeast might reduce the need of a biga, but I saw they mention that the aromatic yeast is used with a preferment or extended proof as well. I have found that in my case, extended proof times of 9 days with the 2% ADY was needed to get the flavor I want from Fleischmann's Active Dry Yeast.  My next challenge will be getting the same fermentation flavor from my 2% ADY dough while translating that into a biga or poolish, and then into a Neapolitan dough.  I'm wondering if a biga would have enough flavor for me without adding 2% ADY.

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