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Author Topic: I'd like to know what is going on  (Read 467 times)

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Offline ivowiblo

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I'd like to know what is going on
« on: July 31, 2020, 10:05:17 PM »
Hi!

First of all, all the advices I got from here lead me to make superb pizzas. So thanks.

I spent the last 3 month in a rural town here in Argentina and made pizza twice a week. I was tuning things, trying new stuff. I got a really nice dough management that lead to a nice pizza. I came back home in the city, made the same dough and it felt less wetter so I got that maybe the weather is drier here so I added more water. The pizza behaved really different and I'd like to know why.

I use a modded G3-like oven, so the oven is the same. I also used the same yeast and the same brand of flour.

My recipe:
- 95% flour (kind of AP, 10% protein)
- 5% VWG
- 0.2% IDY (not sure. it's branded as instant but I don't know if it's the same as the one that you guys have in the US. I found that it behaves like 0,4% fresh yeast)
- 3% salt
- 63% water (used 66% back in the city)


24 hs bulk fermentation (mix everything and do a couple of stretch and folds at hours 6 and 7) + 4 hs in balls. everything at 18-19 °C

Differences:
In the rural town:
- Water has more calcium content (and other minerals). It may be a little alcaline.
- Weather is more humid
- VWG bought there
Result:
- Dough was extensible. just a bit elastic so it holds it shape better.
- Dough felt a little bit sticky but good enough
- Cornicione went nice
- Coloring was even

In the city:
- Water was filtered from the tap
- Weather is more dry (I put 3% more water)
- Use a different VWG (maybe it's the same, but I bought it in the city)
Result:
- Dough was elastic. It was a little bit harder to open.
- Zero stickiness
- Cornicione didn't rise that much (it was good but didn't rise much)
- A lot of leoparding

I know it's a ton of yeast. But I kept experimenting until I got a nice pizza. Same procedure here in the city and the dough is harder to open but provides a leoparded cornicione that looks pretty good.

Any ideas? Thanks!



« Last Edit: July 31, 2020, 10:08:09 PM by ivowiblo »

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: I'd like to know what is going on
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2020, 12:36:47 AM »
A lot of what you mention as differences could possibly be due to differences in the VWG. There are different types of VWG and when you get it from different manufacturers there is a possibility it could perform differently. It there any way you can make the same dough in the city but using the same brand of VWG as was used in the rural town?
Differences in the water, especially the hardness/mineral content might be a contributor but in this case I don't think it's the culprit.
Since you are using IDY, how do you add the IDY to the mixer?
How about the age of the IDY that you used in the city? How long have you had it? How has it been stored?
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Yael

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Re: I'd like to know what is going on
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2020, 01:34:04 AM »
Is it possible that there are other differences you didn't notice? Mistakes in amounts? Different fermentation temperatures or lengths? In baking? (BTW, was it the same oven? You have mountains in Argentina, is it possible that it affects the fire ? (even though I remember Bill telling me it wasn't a problem in an other thread)
Back in the city, did you make pizza only once or already made it several times, enough to get an idea of an average?
Do you have the opportunity to go back to the rural town and proceed to the same tests again (once you made enough tests in the city to "feel it" correctly)?
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline ivowiblo

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Re: I'd like to know what is going on
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2020, 01:48:13 PM »
Thanks for your responses :)

I will be able to get the "rural" vwg in some time probably. I will try it then and maybe solve the mistery
The yeast is the same (i brought the package home). Actually, here the package come in pairs. I open one package in the rural town, made pizzas an about a week later I moved back to the city with the other yeask pack. They should be the same yeast. This is the second pizza I make in the city. The first one had some issues (but resulted in a similar pizza) so for the second one I wanted to mimic the procedure in the rural town. So in the two pizzas I shared here, I made the dough using the same procedure: warm water, yeast, wait 2 mins until solved, put some flour, wisk, add a mixture of flour+vwt+salt, mix and the dough felt already different.

Regarding quantities... I'm using a a different scale for the flour and water (but not for the yeast).

One thing that also changed is that in the rural town I made 3 balls and in the city I made just 1, so the bulk fermentation was different.

BTW, the oven is the same. It's a mod'ed stovetop pizza oven that is giving me so many satisfactions

So I guess it's the VWG. But it looks like the absortion of the new one is much higher. And also it makes stronger and more elastic dough.

Thanks

Offline ivowiblo

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Re: I'd like to know what is going on
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2020, 05:28:27 PM »
So.. what can I do? Lower the amount of VWG? More time in balls? Adding more water?

What about that amount of yeat? it doesn't look right

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Offline Yael

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Re: I'd like to know what is going on
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2020, 10:14:58 PM »
Well... Both pizzas look good, as long as you can't get the exact same products at both locations, just keep improving each of them separately, and eventually you will discover the culprit(s) of those differences!
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: I'd like to know what is going on
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2020, 12:26:57 PM »
Yael brings up a good point with the mountains, while we know that altitude will affect how a a pizza (dough in general) bakes, we know that we may need to make adjustments in our dough formulation to account for this, it can also affect how the dough looks and feels, so it would be good the know the altitude that the "rural town" was located at.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline ivowiblo

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Re: I'd like to know what is going on
« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2020, 01:18:12 PM »
Based on my google results, the city is at 25m and the rural town is at 16m

I don't know what that means haha

Offline ivowiblo

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Re: I'd like to know what is going on
« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2020, 03:18:46 PM »
I tried today with less yeast and less fermentation time (and more temperature because it's hotter) and the results are more aligned to what I got in the rural town in terms of coloring.

Is it possible that in the rural town there was something killing some of the yeast? I read something about dead yeast making the dough more tender and the color differences may be a fermentation issue (since the yeast was dead, it didn't ferment as much mantaining the color)

Another thing that I forgot to mention is that in the rural town I used to open the skins with just flour and here I used 50% flour, 50% semolina. Today I tried with flour directly again. Could it impact the crust color?

Anyway, I'm following Yael's advice and everything seems to be going to the right place, but from an scientific point of view I'd like to know what it's going on haha.

You guys are the bestest of the best

Offline Jackitup

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Re: I'd like to know what is going on
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2020, 12:39:14 AM »
That's a nice pie!
Jon

“The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”            -Mark Twain

If you don't think you're getting what you should out of life.....maybe you're getting what you deserve       -the Root Beer Lady

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Offline Yael

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Re: I'd like to know what is going on
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2020, 01:34:10 AM »
I'm thinking to this citation from a link recently shared by Reesa (Texmex) :

[...]The problem is that the real world is, well, real, and as such, very difficult to control. In any scientific endeavor, there are a number of key principles that must be adhered to if you want to ensure that your results are accurate and repeatable—the hallmark of any sound experiment.

That's the risk with occasional tests. So many variables that we're not always aware of (specially freshly new pizza makers, but it also happens to experienced ones)... I've been through this, guess we all have  :-D

Again, once put into perspective: your customers, even family and friends, will never notice the tiny difference you're struggling to understand ;D
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline texmex

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Re: I'd like to know what is going on
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2020, 04:49:59 AM »

Your pizza looks pretty darn good for coming out of that little appliance!
Although the oven might be the culprit since it is modded and electric power quality can differ form location to location, it seems like the dough behavior is the real issue.

An interesting read about power quality: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_power_quality

You mentioned a larger dough formula batch bulk fermented so the temp on that bulk would start you off with a dough that would hold wamth easier than a single ball does. Does that make it a quicker ferment, or a slower one?   
The difference in tackiness of the dough sounds like mineral content messing with the glutens and ability to ferment ideally.  Is one water supply from a well, and, or, not filtered?  They say harder water will retard the fermentation, while soft water tends to cause stickiness in the final dough.

Simply having the same brand of flour is not the same as having the same batch of flour, and that could be the problem. When experimenting with the inconsistencies we must focus on the singular item variables and consistent methodology, or we can't find the truth. This explains my inability to ever know what's going on when issues arise, because I will jump from page 7 to 17 without a care, and forget what my initial goal was.
Don't be like me, unless you enjoy constantly wondering what's going on??  ???





Reesa

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