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Author Topic: Baking with a professional deck oven and a commercial proofing cabinet  (Read 1179 times)

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Offline Kman

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@ Qwertjuan,

Going through some old threads (on Petes advice) I was excited to learn you run a pizzeria?? You asked the Dough Doctor around 4 months ago for advice on purchasing a commercial proofer. Well now I just bought one! its a basic proofing cabinet with temperature and humidity controls. Any advice based on your experience on how best to use it? I cold ferment my dough 48 hours and recently bumped into the procedure of freezing my dough balls which after returning to room temperature after around 3 hours and sitting in a plastic wrapped tray for another 3 to regain rise performed beautifully in my gas grill makeshift oven (still waiting for my professional deck oven to be installed).

So another question is: any experience anyone with freezing dough balls and using them?

Also to articulate my questions on using the proofer better:

1) how can a proofer help with a same day proofing minus refrigeration?
2) After a cold ferment, how long does the dough need to be in the proofer to make it fit for use?



Offline QwertyJuan

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@ Qwertjuan,

Going through some old threads (on Petes advice) I was excited to learn you run a pizzeria?? You asked the Dough Doctor around 4 months ago for advice on purchasing a commercial proofer. Well now I just bought one! its a basic proofing cabinet with temperature and humidity controls. Any advice based on your experience on how best to use it? I cold ferment my dough 48 hours and recently bumped into the procedure of freezing my dough balls which after returning to room temperature after around 3 hours and sitting in a plastic wrapped tray for another 3 to regain rise performed beautifully in my gas grill makeshift oven (still waiting for my professional deck oven to be installed).

So another question is: any experience anyone with freezing dough balls and using them?

Also to articulate my questions on using the proofer better:

1) how can a proofer help with a same day proofing minus refrigeration?
2) After a cold ferment, how long does the dough need to be in the proofer to make it fit for use?

I actually haven't purchased a proofer yet... I really want to! But haven't pulled the trigger. So I can't help you there... I just take the dough out of the fridge in shifts... so many trays each hour. We've been operating for 5 years, and over those 5 years, I've got a pretty good system setup for how much dough to take out at any particular time on any particular day. I keep a chart on the wall, and we use that to decide how much to take out each hour.

As far as frozen dough?? I know a pizza place down the road from me that does this. They are open Thurs-Sun... they make all their dough Mon-Tues and freeze it... take it out and use it on the weekend. I have NO idea if they just shove it in the proofer from frozen, or if they take it out and let it naturally "thaw"...

As far as your question... "1) how can a proofer help with a same day proofing minus refrigeration?".... it's just going to speed it up even further... I am guessing dough ready in a matter of 45-60 minutes... pretty sure the dough would be bland however... that is the whole point of a longer fermentation.

As far as your second question... "2) After a cold ferment, how long does the dough need to be in the proofer to make it fit for use?" I am not 100% sure... but I have used a proofer at a rental hall, where I've catered a few events for bread. The dough proofed in MINUTES. I had the temp set at 105 and the humidity at 100%... no idea on the IDEAL temps... but that's what I used the few times I had a chance to use it. Bread proofed CRAZY fast. Like... maybe 1/3 the time as proofing at room temp??

So sorry I can't be of more help. Some day I will have a commercial proofer and I'll know! :D there is the ODD time, where we get SLAMMED and we run out of dough, and I'm thinking to myself... MAN, I wish I had a proofer right about now!! :D

Offline Kman

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Thanks Qwertyjuan!

I have returned to the forum after making two expensive but important purchases as in my commercial deck oven and my commercial proofer. Here are the results of using both together with some more questions:

I made my dough in the afternoon and let it rise at room temp for about two hours. To test the proofer I took out two dough balls and proofed them for 45 mins at 45 Celsius with a relative humidity of 75%

I got what appeared like two very well risen dough balls at the end. When I took them out and began making pies I realized they were full of air! Too late to do anything I rolled them into balls and made pies. I then placed them in my preheated deck oven with top side and underside temps set to 300 C. I baked for 10 mins and realized the cheese was bubbling like crazy and turning brown real fast. At 10 mins i pulled out the pies. What i got was:

1) Really and I mean REALLY soft crust which almost gave the feeling of being undercooked.
2) No rise in the crust and no air bubbles.
3) My family complained there was no crunch at all.

Otherwise all good. Can you weigh in with your observations please qwertyjuan and anyone else reading this please??.

My questions:

1) This is my first time using a commercial deck oven. To bake a new york style pizza and get a crunchy crust what top side and underside oven temperatures do i need to set? Also what's the advisable baking time from your experience?

2) The deck oven comes with a stone surface but I baked using a pizza pan today. Will i get better results placing the dough directly on the stone?
 
(of course ill need to understand how to use the proofer before I try using it again. My guess is that's what messed up my dough. Ill try tomorrow after cold fermenting my dough overnight and all day tomorrow)

 
 


Offline Kman

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Dear Tom,

Hoping you'll have some time to look at this post and reply to me

In continuation of my earlier post heres what my commercial deck oven looks like. Its manufactured in china and has a max temp of 400 C top and bottom

Some pics are attached.

I went through some of your old threads and found you recommending bottom deck temp to be set to 218C and upper to 274C?
Also does it matter if you bake in one of these using pans or directly on the stone?

I want my dough to spring in the oven and get a good brown corona. How about setting the top and bottom temps to 300C and above? would that help with the dough spring and cook the pizza quickly and efficiently?

Also how do I use the proofer? Some of your older threads said proofing would be done quickly but lets say i want to use dough on the same day how long should it be in the proofer before i can use it? and at what RH and temp settings?

Can the proofer lend any advantage after a 48 or 72 hour cold ferment?

I have scoured the internet but have not come across any useful guide on how to use the commercial proofing cabinet. Any help or tips you can give would be awesome please!

 

Offline QwertyJuan

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With everything you've said?? Sounds like the dough was WAY overproofed. If your dough is overproofed it will be like a limp rag. No colour. No rise. No crunch.

What is your recipe??

300C(572F) is PLENTY hot btw.... I cook at 500F most of the time... will crank up to 525-550F if my oven is getting slammed.

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Offline Kman

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@ Qwertyjuan

Need some guidance on baking with my deck oven. What’s the ideal top and bottom temperature? And what is the ideal baking time. The best pizza I have baked so far was with 400C bottom and 250C too but the crust became very crisp in 10 minutes whereas it should have been a tad softer. Also I think even when the temp reading gets to the desired mark maybe I have to wait for the stone to get piping hot before I lay my pie on it? Or should I be using a pan? If people can get perfect texture and oven spring using a home oven with pizza stones where am I going wrong with my commercial oven?

Offline QwertyJuan

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@ Qwertyjuan

Need some guidance on baking with my deck oven. What’s the ideal top and bottom temperature? And what is the ideal baking time. The best pizza I have baked so far was with 400C bottom and 250C too but the crust became very crisp in 10 minutes whereas it should have been a tad softer. Also I think even when the temp reading gets to the desired mark maybe I have to wait for the stone to get piping hot before I lay my pie on it? Or should I be using a pan? If people can get perfect texture and oven spring using a home oven with pizza stones where am I going wrong with my commercial oven?

I let my oven warm up for almost 3 hours before I start cooking in it. You want that stone HOT!! I don't have a setting for top and bottom, but with a thermometer, my stone will run about 500F and the dome is about 525F... not sure what that is in celsius... Google will tell you! ;)

Also... what is your recipe??

Offline Kman

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Do i need warming up time of 3 hours for a commercial oven as well? It has maximum bottom and top deck temp of 400C (752F)

I'm using the following recipe that is primarily used for Neapolitan pizzas:

1 liter of water

1.75 kg of Flour

25 g of salt

20 gms of oil

15 gms of sugar

Yields roughly 9 dough balls of 250gms each

I will try this today with a same day room temperature rise. Ambient temperature in my city today is 79F and its cloudy with 74% humidity. The kitchen heats up real fast once I turn on the deck oven. Ive got the proofing cabinet but at the moment I'm clueless on how to use it.


Offline Pete-zza

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Kman,

Did you forget the yeast, or maybe a starter?

Peter

Offline QwertyJuan

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Do i need warming up time of 3 hours for a commercial oven as well? It has maximum bottom and top deck temp of 400C (752F)

I'm using the following recipe that is primarily used for Neapolitan pizzas:

1 liter of water

1.75 kg of Flour

25 g of salt

20 gms of oil

15 gms of sugar

Yields roughly 9 dough balls of 250gms each

I will try this today with a same day room temperature rise. Ambient temperature in my city today is 79F and its cloudy with 74% humidity. The kitchen heats up real fast once I turn on the deck oven. Ive got the proofing cabinet but at the moment I'm clueless on how to use it.

What kind of flour??

Your hydration is very low for anything I've ever made... but I know different flours need different hydrations. What flour do you use??

And YES... my deck oven takes 3 hours to fully heat up. Your oven looks a LOT smaller than mine... so maybe it wouldn't take as long, I don't know for sure.

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Offline Kman

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First of all my sincere thanks Qwertyjuan and Pete for taking the time out to reply. After making a pretty sizeable investment in the oven and proofer I gotta make this work and bake pizzas I can sell! Your support is invaluable and with it I may just nail this! Err I hope I do  :-X :-[

So here's my recipe for yesterdays bake with pics:

I used Tom's 14" New York Style recipe:

Flour-100%
Water-65%
Salt-1.75%
Oil-1%
IDY-1.25%

I made flour for 6 dough balls which in gms came to:

Dough-1560 g
Water- 1014 g
Salt- 27.3 g
Oil- 15.6 g
IDY- 3.9 g

Process:

1) I added the salt and IDY to the water and then mixed in the dough by hand for almost 15 minutes till I got a nice clean soft texture. I then added the oil and kneaded for another 5 minutes.
2) I cut off two dough balls one weighing 350 gms and the other 250 gms
3) As I wanted to test the proofer I placed the dough balls on an oiled tray in the proofer which was heated to 32C and with relative humidity of 75%. I proofed the dough for 30 minutes
4) My oven had heated up for 1 hr with top deck temperature set to 200C and bottom deck to 300C
5) I made one pie with some fresh tomato sauce aged mozzarella and some mushrooms and the other a classic margarita
6 I launched the first pie directly on the stone and let it cook for 12 mins.

First pie results: I got some oven spring and a nice cooked bottom. (I notice that since I flour my peel to enable the pie to slide off easily onto the stone, the cooked pie has flour dust at the bottom. No idea how to deal with this?!) The pie which was rolled initially using a pin and then stretched by hand was a thin pie. It was crunchy and airy and the texture was like a chewy cracker. But I did not get the soft chewy spring and the puffed up corona I would get if I baked in my gas grill on a pizza screen placed on tomato cans. When I bake in my gas grill I ALWAYS nail it and the pizza can almost pass off as a standard Neapolitan. Here are some pics from the first pie:

Also the cheese begins to bubble like crazy after 5 minutes. so more than 12 mins in the oven is a no no. Overall the pie was easy to bite into and had a thin crust pizza texture.     
 

Offline Kman

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Part-II

The second pie was baked after 15 mins. This time I got almost zero oven spring. The crust was dense and chewy/hard. My sons said it was fine and that the texture was almost like a dominoes margarita. This time the pie was only hand stretched. It was the 250 g ball.

To answer your question on the flour there's a problem I face in Pakistan because while we are among the large exporters of wheat globally we have no standardized milled/refined flour available in the market with an analysis of gluten content. However bakers in my city tell me its a high protein flour and good for baking breads, sweet yeast dough products and pizzas. Here are the results of the second pie. The rest of the dough was left to rise at RT for 6 hours and then placed in a sealed container in the refrigerator overnight. I took it out at 11 am and will bake after leaving it to rest at RT for 3 hours.

Qwertyjuan: the oven I use is 53.5 inches wide and 36 inches deep and 24 inches high
 

Offline Kman

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Re: Baking with a professional deck oven and a commercial proofing cabinet
« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2020, 06:18:28 AM »
@Qwertyjuan
@Pete

I finally have found a finer quality of flour that is easily avaialble in my city.

I'm baking today with the following recipe given to me by a local pizzeria who are using the same flour and baking with a commerical gas deck oven like mine. I will share results later.

Flour 1 kg
Salt 1 tbsp
Sugar 1tbsp
Yeast 1.5 tbsp
Oil 1/4 cup
Milk 4.5 tsp
Water 450gms

After hand kneading the dough I have formed it all into a ball and placed in my proofing cabinet for 30 mins with 75% relative humidity and 32C temp

In the meanwhile, Tom if you get a chance to read my posts I need your guidance on:

1) Ideal upper and lower deck temperatures for a gas oven
2) Ideal proofing time in a proofing cabinet

Any other tips/thoughts on the recipe folks I'll be grateful for your input as always.

The dilemma im facing is that with my original recipe I'm able to bake perfect crusts in 10 mins in my gas grill using pizza pans propped on tomato cans and the hood down of course. Transfer the same dough to the commercial deck oven and I dont get the same results. There is minimal rise and the dough is just not airy and light like it comes out from the grill. So it must have to do with temperature right? Or do we need to tailor recipes to the commercial deck oven? My original recipe is

Flour 1.5 kg
Water 1 litre
Salt 25 gms
Honey 1 tablespoon
IDY 5 gms
Oil 2 tbsps


   
 


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