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Offline Chef Crispy

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Scaling dough recipe
« on: July 31, 2020, 10:51:15 PM »
Here is a good one for you.

We tested out 4 different dough recipes with variations of yeast and water percentages. All 4 were good but we settled on one to be the preferred recipe.

Water.             700 g
Yeast.                 6 g
Flour.              1130 g
Malt powder.        24 g
Salt.                    24 g
Olive oil.             55 g

85 degree water and yeast into the bowl of stand mixer, while scaling remaining ingredients.  First the flour, salt, malt powder is mixed, then the oil.  Put it in high gear for about 10 minutes.

It worked the first time.  I could spread this dough so thin I could see through it, difficult to tear.  Now when I doubled the batch, I couldn’t get the window pane test after 25 minutes of mixing.

I said screw it and eventually scaled and fermented the dough.  I let the dough come u to room temp but when attempting to make a pizza it would tear.  Obviously the gluten didn’t develop.  (Pendleton flour power)

Why did doubling the batch yield poor results?
The mixer is a 30 qt and only seemed about 10% full.  I had wondered if having more ingredients in the bowl would help with the mixing process?  However the first time it was only 5% full.

Has anyone ever experienced a poor need based on the volume in the mixing bowl?

Offline Yael

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Re: Scaling dough recipe
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2020, 11:53:30 PM »
Chef Crispy,

What kind of yeast are you using?
What was the FDT?
How long was the CF?
Was it the same flour from the same bag?

Besides these questions, 25 min dough mixing is very long, if you don't have the gluten network done there's a big problem. You could mix less than 10 min + a 24H fermentation (cold or RT, depending on your yeast) and you would get normal/good result.
You add warm water, you mix such a long time, wasn't the gluten all burnt out instead?? (if such thing can occur)
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Scaling dough recipe
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2020, 12:42:16 AM »
In addition to Yael's questions, do you have a reverse spiral dough agitator or a "J" hook on your mixer?
Planetary mixers without a reverse spiral dough arm are notoriously sensitive to the amount of dough in the bowl.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Scaling dough recipe
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2020, 11:35:22 AM »
Chef Crispy,

Can you tell us what brand of malt powder you used, and also its degrees Lintner value?

Peter

Offline Chef Crispy

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Re: Scaling dough recipe
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2020, 10:12:55 PM »
Lots of questions.

Yael
The yeast is from sysco, dry active, Le Saffre.  I never heard of it until the order came in.

I dont know what FDT or CF mean but I can tell you after mixing I let rest at room temp for about an hour before scaling into 20 oz balls that went into the walk in for about 26 hours.

Yes the flower was from the same bag, Pendleton Flour power.

Like I said, I have had success in the past, but when doubled it wouldn't come together to pass window pane test and defiantly wouldn't stretch the next day.  After I finish replying to all the questions I am going to share my experience today to check a theory.

Now a question for you.  What part of China are you in?  My wife is from Zhanjiang, former French colony, about 4 hours southwest of Guangzhou.  When I spoke to locals (through translation) about opening a pizzeria there, nobody seemed interested, they want a steak house. 

Also, where to you get cheese in China?  I also spoke to my wife about starting a ranch out there for quality beef and have some dairy cow, she laughed at me saying the government would just take everything from me anyway.

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Offline Chef Crispy

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Re: Scaling dough recipe
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2020, 10:18:33 PM »
Dough Doctor,

Yes I am using a dough hook.  I assume it is what you refer to as a J hook.  I have heard though and never tried.  It is possible to start a dough with half the flour and the paddle and working the dough this way will help the gluten form.  I have never seen that done before and am skeptical.

I cant understand how the first batch came out fine, but doubling seemed to be not enough in the mixer.  This is a 30 qt mixer and the first batch yielded 56 oz and the second one was about 112 oz.

Offline Chef Crispy

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Re: Scaling dough recipe
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2020, 10:26:16 PM »
Pete-zza,

The malt powder is from amazon.
Hoosier Hill Farm Dry Malt (Diastatic) baking Powder 1.5 lb. The Litner rating for Hoosier Hill Farm Dry Malt (Diastatic) Baking Powder is 60. (not sure if that is in degrees though)

Offline Chef Crispy

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Re: Scaling dough recipe
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2020, 10:35:49 PM »
OK, here is what I did  to try to trouble shoot my weak ass dough with poor gluten development.

I made 2 batches today.  First one I added the oil after the remaining ingredients came together.  The second batch I added oil in the begining with the water before mixing.  I got to say the second one came together much better.

Could it be when scaling the recipe the oil is to much to add after the dough comes together?  Reduce the total amount of oil?

Researching my problem only led to more questions

It is recommended to add 3%  55 g oil/1939 total g = 2.84%

I had also saw a recommendation that you should add the salt last as adding the salt in with the flour & yeast prevents the gluten development

I didnt know it was this complicated

Offline Yael

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Re: Scaling dough recipe
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2020, 11:14:14 PM »
Chef Crispy,

For further references:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20056.msg196875#msg196875

For your dough:
I suggest you start again from scratch, but in a simpler way:
Water (maybe need to be cold), flour, yeast; start mixing at low speed; after 1 or 2 min add salt; and when your dough starts to look good you add the oil, then you stop when it's totally absorbed (3 min), total mixing: 8 to 15 min depending on your mixer and flour (high gluten may need a long mixing than low gluten). FDT around 23°C then counter rest 0.5H, balling, and CF. When you want to use the dough after 24-48-72H just take it out 7 to 1H before baking (let them at least recover RT ~20°C before baking).
This is the most basic mixing procedure, this way you will have a good basis for further tests.

It's also better to give us the percentage of your formula: all the amounts according to the flour, which is always 100%, I helped you on this one:

Flour. 100%         1130 g
Water.  61.95%           700 g
Yeast.    0.53%             6 g
Malt powder.  2.12%       24 g
Salt.        2.12%            24 g
Olive oil.    4.87%        55 g

About China:
I live in North-East, but will be back next to Guangzhou (south) next month (I was in Shenzhen before).
China is a huge and interesting market, but as much interesting as a PITA. The way Chinese understand pizza has been conditioned by Pizza Hut which was the 1st pizza chain in China in 1990. So Pizza Hut's pizza is the reference for them. Ironically, a lot of them don't like it. But they have basically no other reference. So when you give them the best pizza in the world, they say "meh". They don't understand so you have to explain to them = a loooot of marketing has to be done = you'll have to invest a lot of money and time. I've never been to Zhangjiang but I know where it is. I don't know the market there, I assume it's pretty much the same as other 3rd-tier cities, and you can obviously open a pizza place but just read again the lines above about marketing   :-[

I wouldn't know a lot about opening a ranch... Not sure the tropical climate is the best for cows? There are Italian joint-ventures making cheese in China (in the north), but I think they buy the milk (locally or imported), they don't produce it on site.
So you can find everything you want, if not made locally it will be imported. Recently, imported EVOO from Spain is even cheaper than the one in France!!
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Scaling dough recipe
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2020, 10:50:59 PM »
With a smaller size dough sometimes the dough can get kicked around in the bowl by the "J" hook and receive some gluten development in the process but when the dough is of any size it just clings to the bottom and sides of the bowl getting very little actual agitation in the process. Or at some point the dough will develop gluten after which it then clings for dear life onto the hook and won't come off so it gets almost not further development when this happens. The only options are to continually stop the mixer and pull or cut the dough off of the hook (not very effective) or to increase the mixer speed thus allowing centrifugal force to hopefully pull the dough off of the hook.
In any case though, you only need to mix the dough JUST until it begins to take on a smooth appearance, more mixing than that is not needed not is it usually desirable as it contributes to a more bread like crumb structure in the finished crust as opposed to the desirable open, porous crumb structure which contributes to the crispiness of the finished crust. The "window pane" test for assessing gluten development is used almost exclusively for bread and buns but seldom for pizza.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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